Out of the Box: Pacesetters headers (18 - 800x600 pics) - Page 4 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 05-25-2007, 09:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harofreak00
that slit does not go all the way though.. it wont leak.. is it still a flow problem?

these other pipes are outlets, the flow doesnt matter on the outlets does it?
the picture labled as a inlet , is not a inlet

it is a OUTLET , just like the 2 header collectors of the headers , so no weld on the inside area of the y-pipe is not a issue

i have yet to see the egr pipe cause any horse power issues , also with it sticking in the exhaust flow path it has a little better chance of flowing enough for the egr to work properly
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Old 05-25-2007, 10:03 PM   #32
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Eric, what about the weld slag Andrew picked off with his finger? If I recall correctly, he has a catalytic converter on the car, like most cars here do.

Coming from a person (me) that works with thermal dynamics and heat transfer, as well as FEA analysis, I can tell you that welding those seams on the inside is important to make the headers last. Those edges will heat up and flex.

To be honest, I haven't CLOSELY examined the competition, but I can tell you I see issues in the PS headers. Particularly the EGR feed. Why would you design and build a product to increase flow and leave a restriction protruding in the flow path?

Why are you using paper gaskets?

These are honest questions I would ask of anyone. Don't take it personally, I'm just interested in the reasons you chose to do this.
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Old 05-25-2007, 11:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Eric, what about the weld slag Andrew picked off with his finger? If I recall correctly, he has a catalytic converter on the car, like most cars here do.
actually i think it was a piece of the actual tube , from when the hole gets drill out for the tube to fit threw , something that is supposed to get cleaned

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Coming from a person (me) that works with thermal dynamics and heat transfer, as well as FEA analysis, I can tell you that welding those seams on the inside is important to make the headers last. Those edges will heat up and flex.
To be honest, I haven't CLOSELY examined the competition, but I can tell you I see issues in the PS headers. Particularly the EGR feed. Why would you design and build a product to increase flow and leave a restriction protruding in the flow path?
the egr is kinda a finicky , we have had tubes on some headers break off , if they are left flush with the tube , or at the outside of the tube surface , so the tube sticking through the tube gains some strength

as for flow , i dont really think its gonna hurt the flow enough to cause a loss in power , also with the tube in the exhaust path it has a better chance to get more exhaust gas into the tube for the egr to function with

as for the welding on 1 side or both , ive seen more problems with welding both sides , to much heat changes the temper in the metal , and can weaken it and cause it to crack easier , double welding has been more problematic as far as warranty issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Why are you using paper gaskets?
the gaskets arent really paper , they are a composite gasket , yes it looks like paper , no its not as good as a metal gasket , the company is switching gaskets over to copper , but its a slow process , and the gaskets are getting done for the applications that have the most issues with burning out

personally ive always used the stock steel mls gaskets , just put a light coat of ultra copper silicone on bloth sides

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
These are honest questions I would ask of anyone. Don't take it personally, I'm just interested in the reasons you chose to do this.
thats why bob asked me to come over here , there is always good , bad , indifference of opinions , as long as things are constrictive , ive got no problems with trying to answer questions , and taking in your opinions , it would be stupid not to listen to customers
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Old 05-25-2007, 11:06 PM   #34
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It doesn't really matter whether it was weld slag or part of the EGR feed, he picked it loose with his finger. Where would it have gone? Cat. Heating up, and burning through the grid.

What about the pitted flanges, and the past problems with the composite/paper gaskets? Is there anything you can do for the topic author'* issues?
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Old 05-25-2007, 11:55 PM   #35
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he is dealing with joe , so im not sure exactly what the 2 of them have discussed , so i really dont want to go to far into any kind of speculation on stuff between the 2 of them , i only briefly talked with joe about it , which pretty much consisted of him emailing me the link here


as for the gaskets , ive know people to have had them last over 10 years , and ive known them to last 5-10 minutes , alot has to do with making sure the bolts are tq down , and to check them often during the first week to week and half to make sure they are staying tight after the heat cycles

i do like the stock MLS style gaskets better

do i i think there is a issue with the flange , possible , its hard to say from pictures , being coated , anything in the surface stands out more , and pictures can amplify it , will have a problem using it , i think it would be slim , id use it personally
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Old 05-26-2007, 01:21 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 gtp sedan
he is dealing with joe , so im not sure exactly what the 2 of them have discussed , so i really dont want to go to far into any kind of speculation on stuff between the 2 of them , i only briefly talked with joe about it , which pretty much consisted of him emailing me the link here
i have not heard back from Joe Lee at all, the only email I received was the reply back to my request to be contacted. I was really expecting an email today.
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:04 AM   #37
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Glad to see you have made it Eric and I appreciate you joining up to help discuss any issues or answer any questions that may come up now and in the future. I was thinking about the EGR tube intrusion as well and wondering about the design. I can't remember about the the SLP'*, but it is apparent on the TOG'* that the tube also extends into the primary. Is there any logic to pulling exhaust gases from somewhat mid-stream rather than trying to pull it from the side of the primary, if the EGR feed was flush mounted? Or maybe it does add a little strength or reduce the cost of welding a flush pipe onto the primary? It is interesting that both headers pictured have the tube extending into the primary.
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:12 AM   #38
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To add strength, you simply weld a flange or boss around the outside, and flush the inside.

OEM manifolds don't have the intrusion.
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Old 05-26-2007, 02:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 gtp sedan
the egr is kinda a finicky , we have had tubes on some headers break off , if they are left flush with the tube , or at the outside of the tube surface , so the tube sticking through the tube gains some strength
As an ex-welder I can tell you honestly that if the EGR tube broke off if left flush with the inside of the tube, then the weld itself was done shoddily. The burn was too hot, or the feed was too fast, or both, and it cold lapped. I have had to make plenty of welds where the inside of all spouts had to be flush on the inside, or it would impede the flow, which does so much more than one would think. The outside weld had to be cool enough and hot enough to burn into both pieces of metal.

If the weld is done correctly, it should be stronger that the actual metal it'* holding. Tests performed on my welds showed that the metal tore/broke before the weld did.

Just a bit of FYI there.
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Old 05-26-2007, 04:09 PM   #40
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ill talk with joe on tuesday

its not the weld that fails its the area around it

also the stock manifolds are cast and restrictive , having more back pressure helps to force exhaust gas through the egr port , with headers and a god high flowing exhaust , ive seen alot of cars come up with codes for insufficient egr flow

i know alot of the gtp crowd disable the egr system , but alot of people leave it functioning , and are not after full race set ups , and some will worry about emissions
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