Mortehl's Performance Buildup - Page 6 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


Performance, Brainstorming & Tuning Talk about modifications, or anything else associated with performance enhancements. Have a new idea for performance/reliability? Post it here. No idea is stupid! (please use Detailing and Appearance for cosmetic ideas)

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Old 02-17-2006, 08:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llBlazin_llLo
How are you going to run the water injection? You add any type of Methanol and spray it through the */c it will strip off the coating. I'd honnestly forget the water injection I think it is going to be too hard to tune without a tuner... if you are going to inject anything I'd do N2O. I'd also go with a higher gearing like 3.33 and a highter stall converter. That can easily get you 2-3 tenths in the 1/4 mile. The exhaust isn't going to be that important other then the downpipe and cat. I'd install a removable race pipe for the track.
1. Methanol does not strip off coatings. The vast majority of it evaporates before getting to them anyway.

2. It is not difficult to 'tune' for WI. The car has full capability to adapt to it. All you have to figure out is how much and what mix to inject (after you decide WHERE to inject).

N2O is not what I'd suggest as a safer alternative over WI.
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:55 PM   #52
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I guess all those Series 2 guys just slap W/I on and drop to a 2.6" pulley and say it is good to go. You ask anyone of them to run W/I without a tuner and they will laugh in your face. If it was so easy to tune why is their basically only one S2 guy that has run W/I and seen great results (Rob Archer - Intense). I hate to say it also but how many shortblocks has he been through? I can tell you he is not on his original.

N20 with a 30-40 shot will be quicker and have more power then you will ever see from W/I and I think much safer then W/I.

Willwren don't take this wrong but what have to been able to do with your W/I? Have you dropped pulley sizes? I just dont see getting much out of W/I with our setups.
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:59 PM   #53
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I use it as a form of intercooling. And yes, I'll be able to drop pulley sizes. That'* the main effort. But there'* other work that needs to be done to make it work efficiently. Particularly porting the outlet of the SC. The sharp edges and rough casting are self-defeating as they add heat that you're trying to kill.

The Gen 3, 4, and 5 Eatons got progressively better over the years in this regard, but the benefits to WI are still there.

WI does not need a great deal of tuning. Most of the tuning effort goes into the OTHER mods. WI is not a POWER ADDER. It'* a power-adder enabler.

What you've heard is one thing. What those of us on this Forum have experienced is totally different. (Greyhare and myself). 3 other cars are setting up systems soon. I've been running it off and on in an experimental mode for 3 years now.
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:30 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llBlazin_llLo
How are you going to run the water injection? You add any type of Methanol and spray it through the */c it will strip off the coating. I'd honnestly forget the water injection I think it is going to be too hard to tune without a tuner... if you are going to inject anything I'd do N2O. I'd also go with a higher gearing like 3.33 and a highter stall converter. That can easily get you 2-3 tenths in the 1/4 mile. The exhaust isn't going to be that important other then the downpipe and cat. I'd install a removable race pipe for the track.

Blazin, I'm not concerned about the water/meth stripping the rotors. Firstly the coting strips over time with normal use and secondly as Willwren said, all the evidence I found is that its evaporated before it could become an issue anyway.

Jury'* out on the gearing right now, higher stall too. Thinking things through based on all the input I received. I'm certainly not going to a high gear change if I do at all.

About the Nitrous.. I have my reasons why I'm against it. I know its safe when done right, but.. not on my car.
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:32 PM   #55
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Mortehl, if you go with a higher stall converter, you may never make it out West without burning up.

Recall what happened to Pdad. He'* now LOWERING his stall.
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Old 02-17-2006, 10:00 PM   #56
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So after 3 years you are now able to drop pulley sizes? Last time I heard you said you were still having problems with the 2.2" and were thinking of going to a 2.3"?

So your telling me that your W/I will not work right unless you port the supercharger? Where did you get this? I don't think that has anything to do with W/I and how it will perform. It is like any other mod that is making your engine breath easier.

I totally disagree with you on the tuning thing. Maybe their is no tuning on a setup like yours where basically you are just misting water into the intake. But if you want to get the most out of W/I the tune is going to be crazy! Your turn on points, turn off points, ramp rates, sparkplug gaps, water/alky mixtures, etc. then you get into the fueling tables of the car (because your O2'* will be all over the place), spark tables of the car (because you have to add timing b/c W/I doesn't make power by itself) and the spark to boost ratio to mess with.

After going through all of that I think it is easier and safer to just run a 30 shot of N2O and you will be quicker because of it.
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Old 02-17-2006, 10:10 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llBlazin_llLo
So after 3 years you are now able to drop pulley sizes? Last time I heard you said you were still having problems with the 2.2" and were thinking of going to a 2.3"?

So your telling me that your W/I will not work right unless you port the supercharger? Where did you get this? I don't think that has anything to do with W/I and how it will perform. It is like any other mod that is making your engine breath easier.

I totally disagree with you on the tuning thing. Maybe their is no tuning on a setup like yours where basically you are just misting water into the intake. But if you want to get the most out of W/I the tune is going to be crazy! Your turn on points, turn off points, ramp rates, sparkplug gaps, water/alky mixtures, etc. then you get into the fueling tables of the car (because your O2'* will be all over the place), spark tables of the car (because you have to add timing b/c W/I doesn't make power by itself) and the spark to boost ratio to mess with.

After going through all of that I think it is easier and safer to just run a 30 shot of N2O and you will be quicker because of it.
Blazin, I think you're missing the point: The purpose of the WI as WE are using it isn't for adding timing or generating more power. WE're trying to cool the top end off with it. Nothing more. Nothing less. For my own, I'm using a system which is going to tie into the MAF and make adjustments based on that. I don't expect more power out of it. I expect intercooling effect
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:19 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llBlazin_llLo
So after 3 years you are now able to drop pulley sizes? Last time I heard you said you were still having problems with the 2.2" and were thinking of going to a 2.3"?

So your telling me that your W/I will not work right unless you port the supercharger? Where did you get this? I don't think that has anything to do with W/I and how it will perform. It is like any other mod that is making your engine breath easier.

I totally disagree with you on the tuning thing. Maybe their is no tuning on a setup like yours where basically you are just misting water into the intake. But if you want to get the most out of W/I the tune is going to be crazy! Your turn on points, turn off points, ramp rates, sparkplug gaps, water/alky mixtures, etc. then you get into the fueling tables of the car (because your O2'* will be all over the place), spark tables of the car (because you have to add timing b/c W/I doesn't make power by itself) and the spark to boost ratio to mess with.

After going through all of that I think it is easier and safer to just run a 30 shot of N2O and you will be quicker because of it.
I'm currently running a x.x" pulley. ON a 1995 SUPERCHARGER. Does that meet with your approval?

No, I didn't say you had to port the outlet. I'm getting at a POINT, that if you're going try to cool your boost charge, there are other things you should take a SERIOUS look at other factors that are easy to fix and can also help keep the charge cool. Saying you have to port a SC to run WI is asinine. But you're the expert.

On the tuning aspects, it depends on what you're after. An intercooling effect? You don't need much. Just enough to run a smaller pulley? Or balls-out? Hell, there'* NA guys running this stuff with no tuning all over the damn place. In applications where they can't get real tuning anyway.

There'* Miata'* racing balls-out in Singapore and the Phillipines in horrible heat and humidity 'rednecking' systems from the WS system that allow them to run at tracks when the conditions would normally make their cars want to stay home.

WI isn't something new and mystical. It'* been used since 1910 in cars and was used extensively in WWII in our aircraft.

Your general statements about 'you'll have to tune' are only right for about 20% of the users. MOST systems available commercially require some slight tuning to the DELIVERY system, not the PCM.

But you're the expert. Maybe I'll ditch my system since you know so much about it. You learned all this by doing it YOURSELF like I did, right?
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:41 PM   #59
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On the stall converter topic. Don't, trust me, i work in a heavy duty automotive truck store, and work with many parts guys with 20 years experience, they all have seen issues from higher stall converters. One of the Mechanics built FWD and RWD automatics, he adviced strongly against it unless the car is a 100% track hound.
You would have to drive across country in 3rd
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:46 PM   #60
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Blazinlo, I think the best thing for you to do is put a higher stall converter and water injection on your car. Then come back to us with your learned experiences rather than differing opinions.

We're speaking from OUR experiences with these things. And I don't have a habit of intentionall steering people wrong on some of these things. I wanted to KNOW about water injection. I could have purchased an off-the-shelf solution and plugged it in. I chose to develop my own from scratch and actually learn something. I'm on my 4th home-built system now, and to this day, I've only got ONE component in my system that was made by a water injection system manufacturer. The nozzle itself. I MADE the nozzles in my previous 3 systems.

I try MANY things on my own car. Simply to see what works and what doesn't. I post my successes for others to try.
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