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Old 12-16-2004, 10:00 AM   #81
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I've said my piece, I still believe that this second Iraq struggle is ethically wrong but whatever, hopefully some kind of resolution can be reached in the end. Just dont call me a racist for not agreeing with the mentality that I have read and commented on.
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Old 12-16-2004, 11:03 AM   #82
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I think this thread should be locked anyway, because no one is arguing about BMD, just who is bigger, scarier (LOL), just in their cause.

Finally i can relate to someone on here (Jim W). I think exactly like you, and am glad someone is finally here like that. This thread was getting pretty nasty with everyone barking at everyone. (no im not implying anything)

Saying that everyone is afraid of the US is a pretty innacurate statement. Honestly, i dont think i know anyone who is afraid of the US, just very angry, and incredibly weary.

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Just dont call me a racist for not agreeing with the mentality that I have read and commented on.
Im afraid big news said anyone not agreeing with the Iraq war is a racist. You've been branded.

Anyone hear about the recent North Korean threat against Japan? Who here agrees that a nation developing nuclear warheads openly, everybody knows it including themselves, with a leader bent on stalinist ideas, poor and desperately in need due to sactions by the west, .. is more dangerous than a nation with a military degraded to the point where it can't function properly.

Compared to them, Iraq was not important on a global scale; majority? So say we saved Iraq from its brutal health care system, and its murderous education system, and its thunderously militant public works systems, and the tyrant dictator who would kill everyone in his country, what does the rest of the world have to show when other nations start blowing us up with their nukes? What do we do then? Will Iraq come to our rescue?

How safer is Iraq now then it was before the US bombarded them? Honestly i think the situation is worse, and its spiralling downwards asides from what US and other medias may (notice i said MAY) be playing it out as. Take into account the now daily attacks and the death toll which keeps rising. If it continues, the Iraq war IS going to be a waste of time because eventually every Iraqi is going to have been either blown up by terrorists/local insurgent or shot by a US marine!

So taking into account the ideas of democracy, aren't we contradicting ourselves by going to iraq? As i recall, a very large majority of people disagree with Iraq. So logically, wouldnt the idea were trying to inforce be illigitamate in the case of democracy? To me it sounds like an Autocracy trying to enforce Democracy.

My standing on Iraq is, its simply too late to go back, and its been too late to go forward for a long time. I don't think the US realized what it was stepping into when it invaded Iraq, unless they wanted to be stained with blood for centuries. There is no end in sight for the Iraqi "struggle". And Georgey Porgey says the country is moving forward. What a misleading statement that is!

I applaud the capture of Saddam, asides from what who ever said i wished he was still in power said. I do not applaud the fact they live without power, can't communicate because we blew up their telephone systems, and their power generating ability, and their water systems and sewage systems. I do not applaud the fact that over 100,000 Iraqi'* have died at the hands of the US military, not counting the ones being killed by insurgents.

Democratic Imperialism belongs in the trash can as history has proven over and over again. Some of us just never learn. While many Iraqis celebrated Saddam'* demise, they have no desire to see an Arab autocrat replaced by a government seen to be serving the wishes of a foreign nation.

In my opinion, it is impossible for a foreign power (any foreign power no matter how much weapons they have) to impose democracy, whether at the barrel of a gun or by other means. Democracy is based upon self-determination and can only flourish when the ingredients for political liberalization are allowed to develop and grow. This process cannot be accelerated by outside forces practicing militarized social engineering, which is being proven now in Iraq. As soon as the US leaves, Iraq is giong to collapse. Why? Because they are not ready as a society.

How realistic is, to the American people, the mission of democratizing the planet by force of arms?
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Old 12-16-2004, 01:22 PM   #83
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Matt, your the one that started this thread by being a smart ***, so dont even think you didnt know what you were doing. Using suttle putdowns towards the US and their actions from WW2 to now about how they conduct their efforts during war time. I mean, where the hell did this come from, or have you always had animosity towards your neighbor in the south? And dont even think that what you wrote is anything that is secret. The plain fact that none of us really know what is going on should keep all of us quite for now. Reading and watching too much news can be a bad thing, especially when a war like this is going on and people get non-stop Opinions about the war from CBS,NBC,ABC,FOX.

In your second post of this thread, your brought up the WTC, American Ignorance, Florida recount,(which it was a world news event, that is your ignorance right thur). I mean what do you expect?

If some dude screwed your girl, would you sit back and say ok, dont do it again and everything will be fine while she keeps on screwing him behind your back? Or would you go to his house, call him out, and **** him up, then go **** up his stupid friends? Thats a difference between America and Canada. "Dont start no ****, wont be no ****."
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Old 12-16-2004, 03:46 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt95ssei
Im afraid big news said anyone not agreeing with the Iraq war is a racist. You've been branded.
************************************************** ***********************************
In my opinion, it is impossible for a foreign power (any foreign power no matter how much weapons they have) to impose democracy, whether at the barrel of a gun or by other means. Democracy is based upon self-determination and can only flourish when the ingredients for political liberalization are allowed to develop and grow. This process cannot be accelerated by outside forces practicing militarized social engineering, which is being proven now in Iraq. As soon as the US leaves, Iraq is giong to collapse. Why? Because they are not ready as a society.

How realistic is, to the American people, the mission of democratizing the planet by force of arms?
Matt and Jim, I'm sorry if I offended you. That'* not my aim here. I just want to point out an ideal that'* at the bottom of all this mess. I'm sorry Matt, but you've made a comment (which I've highlighted in bold type) that directly supports my arguments.

I don't know how this mentality of "Iraq isn't ready for democracy" can flourish, especially in liberal mindsets. Isn't the liberal stance supposedly humanitarian? Usually people of the liberal persuasion are the biggest champions of human rights, environmental protection, civil rights, etc. So how can you say that the Iraqi people are not deserving and ready for freedom?

Democracy is not strictly an American ideal. We have to stop thinking outside that box. Democracy simply represents a state of living when a man or woman can do as he or she pleases, albeit with certain limits (murder, theft, etc.). Americans happen to believe strongly in this ideal, because we recognize that it is the natural human condition at birth. When I say "Americans" I don't mean white, middle class people from Iowa. "Americans" includes many people of Middle Eastern descent who cherish the fact that they are finally able to choose their own path in life in this nation.

You have to agree with me that you all cherish your personal freedoms. If we sit and think about it, we really can't imagine life any other way, can we? Having the freedom of choice is the way humans were meant to live. I'll say it again: Americans of different ethnicities don't love their liberty any less than the average white male. Canadians live in a democratic society where they can vote for leaders, spend time and money as they choose, and live as they please, so they enjoy these liberties as well. It is the basic human condition. Nobody in this world deserves anything less.

Americans have been fortunate enough to recognize this truth. We believe it is an absolute truth, as opposed to believing it is one of many options. We know that people who do not have the freedom of choice are being oppressed as human beings, and so we fight to grant them the rights that they deserve. Freedom is the only way in which to live, as I'm sure you will agree. So when we see a people being brutalized we are compelled to assist them, to restore them their human dignity. There are no options here. You can't love the liberty you are given, but say "This group of people over here isn't ready to think for themselves. They need a few more decades of tyranny to whip them into shape."

Now before you jump on me for putting words into your mouth, I will absolutely acknowledge that nobody has directly said any of those words. However if you look at the statement "They are not ready as a society," what other conclusions can be drawn? As I see it, this kind of mentality is directly debasing the value of Iraqis as members of the human race. How in the world can we fight to protect our rights in our own countries, but take the stance that another group of humans is not ready for those same rights? It'* absurd! From birth, every single human being is ready for those rights! It is a fact! Iraqis are not "programmed" differently when they leave their mothers' wombs. They are every bit as ready for freedom as we are. So to believe otherwise is, in effect, a racist statement. Do you see my line of thinking? There is no other logic. If you love your own freedom but don't try to obtain the same freedoms for other humans, you are putting those other humans on a lower level than yourself.

Quote:
I applaud the capture of Saddam, asides from what who ever said i wished he was still in power said. I do not applaud the fact they live without power, can't communicate because we blew up their telephone systems, and their power generating ability, and their water systems and sewage systems. I do not applaud the fact that over 100,000 Iraqi'* have died at the hands of the US military, not counting the ones being killed by insurgents.
This comment is all over the map. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You applaud the capture of Saddam, yet you don't like the fact that the government is in upheaval and they have no uitilities? This is absurd! The temporary absence of organization and modern comforts is the result of the efforts to capture Saddam. The consequences of war are not a pretty thing. But war in the name of true freedom is beautiful. The only way to capture Saddam was to disable the infrastructure of the nation. Innocent lives were lost on both sides, but which is better? Would you rather Saddam sitll be in power? You have to choose one option or the other. You can't expect a brutal dictator to be forced from his throne without loss of life and some creature comforts. This whole new Iraqi government is just beginning. We have to give it time! Two years is not enough to create a stable, functioning government, but the world is screaming because they think this business should have ended by now. How quickly we forget the lessons of history! The United States needed years to sort out all its issues after the revolution! We still had problems with England attacking us over 30 years after our Declaration of Independence! This is not an overnight process. We all need to realize that even though war is terrible it is sometimes very necessary for justice. Saddam'* capture was the best thing that could have happened to Iraq. The peole there can finally begin to get a taste of what it'* like to really be alive.
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Old 12-16-2004, 03:59 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim W
I've said my piece, I still believe that this second Iraq struggle is ethically wrong but whatever, hopefully some kind of resolution can be reached in the end. Just dont call me a racist for not agreeing with the mentality that I have read and commented on.
Jim, I'm not just throwing a racist label on you because you disagree with me. I would never do that. Using racism out of context is a low blow, and it is outside my ethical standards. I apologize if I wasn't clear.

If you'll read my post just previous to this, you might get a better idea of what I mean. I do not use the term "racist" lightly. However there is no other way to look at this situation. In effect, you enjoy your freedoms as a Canadian, but you don't think Iraqis should be free to enjoy those same freedoms? How is that not racist? It is effectively lowering the value of another human being.

Please, please to not take this as an attack against you and you alone. It just bothers me that we settle for anything less than freedom of choice in the lives of people around the globe. I'm just asking you to dig a little deeper into your beliefs. I know you are not consciously being biased toward any certain group of people. You have never done anything that would make me question this. However, there is a flaw in your viewpoint toward this war and this group of people. I'm just challenging you to do a little more self-examination. I hope this finds you in good spirits, and I hope you will not think of me as an attacker. Please let me know what you think of all this.
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Old 12-16-2004, 07:02 PM   #86
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Ben, before we lock this one down, I understand your views, but I was perplexed at the racist terminology. I appreciate your courtesy and respect towards my view and I will no longer harp them in this thread subject. That being said, we've all heard from everyone, Matt you've said your piece over and over and seeing as how you tend to be the argumentative type, its time we finish.

I do not want a second version of this thread started. Its done.
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