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Old 12-15-2004, 03:34 PM   #71
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Gentlemen.

Don't make me teach you a lesson on Canadian/American interelations, because I will. But the next smelly bag of crap that gets thrown in this thread and its over.

I'll add my 2 cents when I have a moment to read this fiasco. Consider yourselves all warned.
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Old 12-15-2004, 03:40 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim W
Gentlemen.

Don't make me teach you a lesson on Canadian/American interelations, because I will. But the next smelly bag of crap that gets thrown in this thread and its over.
I was wondering when you were finally gonna speak up, I know you have some opinions on all of this.
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Old 12-15-2004, 07:02 PM   #73
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Alright

Notwithstanding all the previous posts, I thought I'd share. First off, there is WAY to much Me and I and You'* being used in this thread. This type of subject despite degrading to a personal opinion-based level is far more then that. This is a global issue. We'll talk about the arms race later.

Lets first bring to light American and Canadian relations. Name me a better ally system on this planet and I will eat my own words. However there is a few problems. Canada is not Americas' little whipping boy, you fire so many friggen stereotypes at us, and typecast endlessly due to the level of ignorance that exists in America about Canada. In turn, we use that as an arrogance thing for our own defense. Canadians are proud that we know more about America then Americans know about Canada. In fact I like to think that I know more about America then some Americans do. On the other side of the coin, America has this level of arrogance that it feels it should be the world police, saviour and protector of all. Why? Because billions upon billions is spent on its defense force. And for the past 70 years America is the benchmark for military power....something worth being arrogant about.

Sandbox mentality, biggest meanest kid has the biggest toys and can push anyone it wants around. Unfortunately that is a dated mentality.

I've read alot here about the struggle for Iraq (and its E-rack not Eye-raq...god that bugs me...) is this current struggle a justified war....no...flat out, its not, the reason to go to war with Iraq was two fold, personal vendetta and oil. Nice cover on the WMD'* cause we all know Iraq had none, and they wouldnt ever have had the capability...but thats speculation..isn't it? So, I guess it was a pre-emptive strike (not good for American PR in the eyes of the world).

I love US media coverage during this "war" terms like Insurgents, The Struggle for Iraq etc....its just all inaccurate catch phrases to sell a story. Like the term "normalcy" after 9/11 (is that even a word? anyway...) An insurgent is a foriegn force in a domestic land, not a civilian picking up an AK and shooting at US marines (I thought that was a guerrilla)....but I'm no expert on this topic so I wont get involved with terms.

Canadians took a lot of flak for not participating in the coalition of the willing (or whatever George called it) we put up for a justifyable cause in Afganistan and the American air force bombed and killed our soliders...nice was Harry Schmidt punished...no not at all....sorry but that pissed a lot of Canadians off....

Canadians will go to war to fight a just cause, and this current Iraq thing is not a just cause...say what you will but thats the way it is. At the end of the day we'll have to find a way to count on each other because I guarantee if the US loses all its allies for whatever reason, its your neighbours to the North that will be there.

Now....umm I believe this topic was about arms races rekindling....does anyone see North Korea as a real threat to the West? I think its saber rattiling on the part of Kim Dong Jong (or whatever he is called) to raise awareness but will it be used...I highly doubt it. Same with Iran...oh hey Donald and George...stay the hell out of Iran...you dont even want to think about starting something with those guys!

Bear in mind, the context of this thread is bit lost on me, but I read some portions of it, and had to share a few thoughts.
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Old 12-15-2004, 07:48 PM   #74
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Oh and one more thing

You want a stop to all Islamic terrorists? Leave the nations under Islam alone and figure out something with regards to the Palestinians, the number one reason why Islamic terrorism exists is due to American backing and support (100%) of the Israelis.

I guess then all this conflict and the War on Terror can stop.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:06 PM   #75
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Ehhh, you should of said something to settle people down instead of stiring up the pot more. Opinions are fine, but to assume, and especially online, can be interrupted the wrong way. Whats done is done, and can never be corrected, only rememberd.

I know what your saying with Iraq, and E-Rack...like I heard people calling German Brat'*, Brats (the little annoying kid version)
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:35 PM   #76
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Wowzers.

That'* almost all I can say... this thread is HUGE. But there is something we're missing here.

Some people think we never should have gone to Iraq. Despite the prospect of WMDs, or the human rights atrocities that were occurring, we shouldn't have gone there. No matter what the structure of government or the state of society in Iraq, we shouldn't have gone there. But from a human rights standpoint, we should have arrested Saddam in Gulf War One. The WMDs were never found in Gulf War Two, but we maintained our presence because of the horrible state of living in Iraq. Many people in America, France, Canada, Italy, Germany, etc., claimed we were overstepping our bounds, and that we should leave, but we stayed. Still, despite obvious human rights violations by Saddam and his sons, many claim we shouldn't be there and we never should have started the war. So here'* a new twist to the whole debate: anyone who thinks we shouldn't be in Iraq is a racist.

Now before you send me hate mail, let me explain myself. Everyone in the US, Canada, and many other countries are free to speak our minds. We're at liberty to agree, disagree, vote, write letters, hold public debates, so on and so forth. Everybody in these countries loves and deserves these rights. We wouldn't be having this debate if we didn't live on the North American continent. I have never run into anybody in my country who has hated these rights and wished he/she had everything decided for them. In reality, we all LOVE the fact that we can do and say whatever we want, whether it coincides with the government or not. This statement is true for everyone in America (I can't speak for Canada in this area), regardless if they're Black, Indian, Hispanic, White, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or Buddhist. We all love our land because we can say and think whatever we want. In fact, we think we think that "all men (people) are created equal.... with certain unalienable rights.....that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." We're all the same, right? No matter who you are, nobody in America thinks they should have any fewer rights than anyone else. It'* the way we're born as people, no matter when or where. As members of the human race, we should all be on the same playing field.

So then why should it be any different for an Iraqi? Ask yourself, "Would a person born in Iraq want to do, think, and say what he/she wants any less than I do?" You'll find that the answer is a resounding "NO!" If a man or woman is born in Iraq, immigrates to the United States or Canada, and becomes a citizen, we tell them, "You are a human being, and you have a burning desire within you to form opinions, speak them freely, and do what you want with your life. Here, in America, you can do all that and more." Is that Iraqi any less human before he/she becomes a citizen? Are they on a level below people who were born on the North American continent? Hell no! Why should they have to move to our landmass to have these basic human qualities recognized? Why can't they stay in the land where they were born and be able to do the things that all humans want to do?

Saying that we shouldn't be in Iraq puts Iraqis on a lower level than all of us. Saying that the war in Iraq is a waste of money and nobody'* business is a racist statement. Do a thought experiment. How would you feel if Saddam Hussein was the dictator of Australia, which is another predominantly English-speaking nation? Would it be so easy to say, "We should never have gone to Australia."? I don't think so. Nobody in America hates their freedom, even if they have dark skin or speak a foreign language. I guarantee you nobody in Iraq hates the idea of freedom either, except maybe those who held power before the war. It'* time we stop putting the Iraqi people on a lower level than the rest of us.
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:30 PM   #77
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Twist, I didnt mean to stir the pot, only share as we all have an attempt to put things into perspective.

As for big_news, thats a very interesting perspective....we should all be free to live the American dream, the world deserves to live that dream, however, why Iraq? Why not many African nations? ie the Sudan? the attrocities that have occured there are tragic, an attempt was made in Rwanda and unfortunately that was a lost cause for the US, but it was a noble one....before we get to off the track, the US should spend its efforts in nations that really need the help.

I read all about American good intentions, and wanting peace and freedom for all, but I suppose my problem is the means in which its done. I believe there are far more humanitarian ways to help Iraq....well, at least wait til it was asked for. There is reason for GWB to want to invade Iraq, was both political and economic yet a blind eye is turned towards nations that really do need the help. Was Saddam a real threat to anyone? No I dont think he really was. Granted, GHWB shoulda finished the job in Desert Storm...I just question the methodology in place now

I wanted to think about things from an "insurgents" perspective. A young Iraqi living his life, going to school (Baghdad is a bustling town, I'm sure it had schools, and hospitals and basic social establishments) anyway, here comes the US army with all these good intentions and instead of hitting a missile silo that has nothing... they hit my apartment and kill my family, destroy my possessions and any hope for a life...I would be kicking mad and do whatever I could to exact revenge....I feel for the countless lives lost over there, both civilian and Marines etc and for what? I hope the end result is that every Iraqi can live the American dream....as you have said.

I just hope that America in all its great power can see the fact that African nations that desperately need financial aid or whatever else can recieve the good intentions that Iraq might receive someday.

Look, I know people may get offended and believe that what is happening is right, and I acknowledge that, lets continue in a polite and respectful manner because I appreciate everyones insights.
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Old 12-15-2004, 10:33 PM   #78
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Jim, I hear what you're saying. When you think of this situation on a scaled-down, person-to-person level there are some horrible tragedies. The example you gave about a hypothetical young Iraqi is probably true in multiple different cases. It is a side of things that everyone wishes did not exist.

But that is reality. A noble cause often requires sacrifice, whether it be time, money, or in this case human life. It is sad, but we all know it is true. But it is worth it. I cannot stress how important it is for these people to be free of tyranny. As I said in my previous post, it is inborn human nature to do whatever we want to do as individuals. It'* much bigger than the so-called "American Dream." It is the Human Dream. There is nobody on this website that wishes we weren't allowed to talk about these things. Freedom is essential to a satisfying, fulfilled life. People everywhere must be able to choose how they want to conduct themselves every day.

Some of you might say that "freedom isn't a dream of the Iraqi people; it'* America'* dream for the Iraqi people." Some might argue that it doesn't mean as much to the Iraqis because they didn't start the uprising themselves. I would simply say that it is because they lacked the means. Their spirits have been crushed to a point where they submit without question. But when presented with a choice, any person on the earth would choose freedom over domination. I'll say again, every man, woman, and child on the North American continent cherishes their right to speak, vote, and think as they like. This is so much bigger than America. This is about viewing the citizens of Iraq for what they are: people who are just as human as you or I.

As far as other nations are concerned, I think you know the answer to that question. There are far too many factors involved in world politics to merely charge into every country in the world "emancipating" people. NATO would get attacked by multiple nations, and World War Three would begin. In fact, I would guess that some people who have participated in this thread would be alarmed at the US invading other nations, even if it were for a humanitarian cause.

I would like nothing more than to see every nation of the world free to choose their leaders and their lifestyles. But the greed of powerful men keeps this from happening, and will continue to thwart freedom in the future. George W. Bush may not be the best leader in the world, but you can bet that he wants to see world freedom as well. Conspiracy theorists conjecture about multiple different motivations for US behavior, but does anyone think about taking it at face value? Too often people ignore the premises on which the United States was built and claim the American mentality is based solely on greed. But what if they're wrong? What if the President is not lying, and truly wants to restore human dignity to the Iraqi people? That sounds like a goal that both Conservatives and Liberals can agree on. Remember, freedom is bigger than ethnicity, border lines, languages, or cultures. It is not an "American" idea. It is something that lives within everyone. If you can't acknowledge that fact, you need to slow your life down and look around you. America is simply freedom in practice. We are not the big bad wolf.
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Old 12-15-2004, 10:47 PM   #79
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America,....and the UN have tried desperately to give relief to these African nations for years. Nothing works over there, the leaders steal the supplies or American lives are lost. Clinton tried Africa as well, but that failed. That continent has to help themselves, think Iraq is bad? We dont even want to get into a African conflict. Those warlords carry a lot of power in those countries. Iraq is now, so why must the past be brung up? Should talk about the news that is happening over there, not what happened here from the news sources.
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:40 AM   #80
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That'* the thing, and I think is pretty much what those in the posts above me said. People say that we should work toward peace, in Africa, in the Middle East and across the world...well, why not Iraq then? We can't be everywhere, we had to pick one. Saddam was obviously someone who shouldn't be in power and until he was gone, nothing was going to change there.

And I had something else to say, but ugh, too early to construct a good arguement...I'll be back later .
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