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Old 12-10-2004, 04:50 PM   #61
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Okay okay.. First of all, if you want to take this to a personal level, lets do it! Now, how many MORE people die now in Iraq because of people like YOU who wish to wage war?

Second, it was people like YOU that waited for Pearl Harbor. People like you didnt see the reason to fight beside your allies because it didnt affect YOU.

Its people like YOU that let your ALLIES get attacked by a nation that was driving through europe africa and asia. people like YOU let other nations get beaten to crap while you sit and wait for someone to attack YOU.

Also, notice i am emphasizing the YOU in each senetence just as YOU do.

Its people like YOU that **** other people off by assuming things. I never said the US should pull out of Iraq, but please.. show me where i said that... Im really curious to see!

What i said was, the US shouldn't have even gone into Iraq because already over 101,250 people have died to date during YOUR incursion.
Its people like YOU that make things worse and claim they are dieing happier because they are free. Personally, i wouldn't want people to die wether they are free or under dictatorship, but it was a nice attempt at making a point.. i guess..

People like ME don't take the world into our own hands and think everyone answers to us, because they DONT. Thats the job of the UN.

Now please, tell me why the "payment of warcrimes charges (in US dollars im assuming you meant) " goes to the US? LOL!!!!!!!!! That seems alot like the stereotypical american! I think mos tpeople would agree the money would go to the families of the Jews, the Poles, the Gay/Lesbians, the Old people who were put to death.

Now asides from being free from a brutal dictator, (i applaud that) now they get to be ruled by the US military and the 1000'* of terrorists which are fighting to push the US out. Personally, i think they were better off before.

Now do you have proof of this mother/child/father scenario you were speaking of? Any evidence this happend, or did you make this up to help make your point but claimed you saw it? I'll believe that when you show me it happend.

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And yes, I understand that the insurgents are killing, but at least people are dying free, not as slaves and prisioners. Not to mention that freedom comes with struggle. Struggle to gain. and struggle to maintain.
Freedom? Do you call people being blown to pieces by bomblets dropping from US warplanes, and terrorists blowing up cars in front of your homes, free? Thats a very nice freedom you speak of. This "struggle" is not going to stop for a VERY long time. The fact that the US is in Iraq, creates more terrorists everyday.

I think the war against terror is what is causing terrorism to become as bad as it is now. Its so easy for terrorists to gain support among they're neighbours and friends. You kill a bunch of Arabs, (like you are doing a good job of now) they use this to recruit hundreds more terrorists. Its a downward spiral of death, but people like YOU don't realize this, or are profiting from it!

Also, the Iraq war, or the war of Errorism i mean war on Terrorism, isn't comparable to that of WW1 or WW2. Iraq wasn't moving through the middle east conquering its neighbours, securing resources to build its war machine, and attacking the western alliances. The US has struggled to produce any semi-valid reasons for the Iraq war. The closest reason for it is to "free them from death and oppression". Conditions have much improved!
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Old 12-10-2004, 06:17 PM   #62
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Okay, lets not get overly personal...this is a debate, not a yelling match.

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Originally Posted by matt95ssei
Second, it was people like YOU that waited for Pearl Harbor. People like you didnt see the reason to fight beside your allies because it didnt affect YOU.
Don't start over generalizing here. I wasn't here. These are different times, different leaders, and a TOTALLY different world stage.

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Its people like YOU that **** other people off by assuming things. I never said the US should pull out of Iraq, but please.. show me where i said that... Im really curious to see!
You imply it in EVERYTHING you say. You say we should not have gone there...then you are saying we shouldn't be there now. It fair to say we aren't putting words in your mouth, you don't have to explicitly say everything. But here'* what I want to hear from you...you say we shouldn't have gone to Iraq. That'* nice and all but the fact is we are there...end of story. Now, tell me, what do you think we should be doing now?

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People like ME don't take the world into our own hands and think everyone answers to us, because they DONT. Thats the job of the UN.
I've said this before...and I'll probably end up saying it again. The UN wasn't working, period. At what point do we stop being members of the UN and start just being puppets of an organization? We (meaning all the countries involved) make the UN, the UN doesn't make us (again, all the countries).
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Old 12-10-2004, 09:49 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt95ssei
Okay okay.. First of all, if you want to take this to a personal level, lets do it! Now, how many MORE people die now in Iraq because of people like YOU who wish to wage war?

Second, it was people like YOU that waited for Pearl Harbor. People like you didnt see the reason to fight beside your allies because it didnt affect YOU.

Its people like YOU that let your ALLIES get attacked by a nation that was driving through europe africa and asia. people like YOU let other nations get beaten to crap while you sit and wait for someone to attack YOU.

Also, notice i am emphasizing the YOU in each senetence just as YOU do.

Its people like YOU that **** other people off by assuming things. I never said the US should pull out of Iraq, but please.. show me where i said that... Im really curious to see!

What i said was, the US shouldn't have even gone into Iraq because already over 101,250 people have died to date during YOUR incursion.
Its people like YOU that make things worse and claim they are dieing happier because they are free. Personally, i wouldn't want people to die wether they are free or under dictatorship, but it was a nice attempt at making a point.. i guess..

People like ME don't take the world into our own hands and think everyone answers to us, because they DONT. Thats the job of the UN.

Now please, tell me why the "payment of warcrimes charges (in US dollars im assuming you meant) " goes to the US? LOL!!!!!!!!! That seems alot like the stereotypical american! I think mos tpeople would agree the money would go to the families of the Jews, the Poles, the Gay/Lesbians, the Old people who were put to death.

Now asides from being free from a brutal dictator, (i applaud that) now they get to be ruled by the US military and the 1000'* of terrorists which are fighting to push the US out. Personally, i think they were better off before.

Now do you have proof of this mother/child/father scenario you were speaking of? Any evidence this happend, or did you make this up to help make your point but claimed you saw it? I'll believe that when you show me it happend.

Quote:
And yes, I understand that the insurgents are killing, but at least people are dying free, not as slaves and prisioners. Not to mention that freedom comes with struggle. Struggle to gain. and struggle to maintain.
Freedom? Do you call people being blown to pieces by bomblets dropping from US warplanes, and terrorists blowing up cars in front of your homes, free? Thats a very nice freedom you speak of. This "struggle" is not going to stop for a VERY long time. The fact that the US is in Iraq, creates more terrorists everyday.

I think the war against terror is what is causing terrorism to become as bad as it is now. Its so easy for terrorists to gain support among they're neighbours and friends. You kill a bunch of Arabs, (like you are doing a good job of now) they use this to recruit hundreds more terrorists. Its a downward spiral of death, but people like YOU don't realize this, or are profiting from it!

Also, the Iraq war, or the war of Errorism i mean war on Terrorism, isn't comparable to that of WW1 or WW2. Iraq wasn't moving through the middle east conquering its neighbours, securing resources to build its war machine, and attacking the western alliances. The US has struggled to produce any semi-valid reasons for the Iraq war. The closest reason for it is to "free them from death and oppression". Conditions have much improved!
I love you man!

It is clear that you are unable or unwilling to grasp the core issue on the humanitarian front, which was the only one i wanted to bring up. An as far as personal, yes, but not in attacking you, but trying to get you to free your mind to try to understand that all people don't think the way you do. Unless you can get to know and undersatand the vision and angle of another, then you will never really understand the mindsets or the actions spurred on by them. IOW, you see politics, I see people free from tyrrany. You see bad presidents, I see hope for a new generation. My glass is half full, what is yours?

Nevertheless, I digress. you are free to say what you will, I just hope my words help broaden you horizons. Peace.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:04 AM   #64
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Matt, you take it personal, not us. That'* obvious. I suggest you cool off for a bit. In the first place, this is a US issue, as you have so obviously pointed out. We were attacked, and we'll do what it takes to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If you don't like it, don't move to Iraq.
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Old 12-11-2004, 10:11 AM   #65
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Sorry this is so long, but it goes through the entire thread. I didn't get to reading it until now.


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What is the purpose of wasting 400 billion dollars on 300+ warships
It was just under 400 billion for all miltary expenditures, not just the navy.

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Bush squaks at our export of pot to your country while he sits idly by as thousands of kilograms of cocaine and happily shipped to the north each year.
Maybe I live under a rock, but I haven't heard Bush squaking at Canada too much, but I have heard a lot about the Coast Guard taking into custody 4 tons of cocaine from down south.(multiple instances)

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Look at the Columbine shootings and the countless others, there must be a problem with the lack of correct gun control procedures. Sure, blame the parents. Its always the individuals fault, and is in no way a result of the states laws and ideals.
So everything that happens is now the governments fault? What ever happened to being responsible for your own freaking actions. Some people that were not right in the head got weapons and took them into a school and shot people. You place the blame on the government? You do realize that all gun control laws do is make it hard for the law abiding citizens right? The bad guys will get what they want, because they are bad. They are willing to break rules.

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Now, the war in Iraq was based on what, weapons of mass destruction and biological weapons?
You could say that, but you would be wrong. That may have been one of the primary reasons for going there, but saying that *IS* the reason we went there is wrong. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there were training camps in Iraq too. There were mass grave sights where *thousands* of innocent people died under the dictatorship. Not to mention the fact that Saddam was hiding something from the UN inspectors. If he wasn't, why wouldn't he let them inspect?

Quote:
Thats odd, because i also have a few friends there also, 4 to be exact and they dont even know why they are there. From what they've told me, most Iraqi'* throw stones at them and curse at them and want them to leave.

I guess that could be considered an open hearted welcome in a foreign language..
And this is where the problem lies. Their way of thinking is way way way way different than ours. MOST of the people there are happy that Saddam is gone. But, ***NOW***(cant emphisize that enough) they want us gone. Who would like their country being occupied by another? The fact of the matter is, if we were to just withdrawl (sp?) all of our forces right now, the "insurgents" would take over that country SO fast that it would be just like having Saddam back in power. They just don't understand that.

Quote:
Obviously we needed it during the World Wars we were fighting for the sake of every nation in the world (while the US was quietly keeping its nose out of it until american territory was attacked), not for the sake of pumping fuel into our SUV'* and BOnnevilles
You are right. We did keep out of world war II until WE were attacked. Guess what, Pearl Harbor was an aweful thing. IMHO, 9/11 was worse. Yet tons of people didn't like us for going into Afghanastan. We aren't attacked, people are mad at us for not going to war. We are attacked and people are mad at us for going to war. Does that make sense? Then we go to Iraq, in an attempt to cease attacks on america, and then people get really mad. Makes sense...

Then if you want to talk about oil, I will. Everyone knows that the middle east has 75% of the worlds oil. They can pump it out cheaper than we can from our own deposits. We have the technology for other forms of transportation. Electric, hybrid, solar, I think the latest one I saw was water, which will be in production in 2006. Now all that needs to be done is to perfect these models so that the averge consumer will want to use them. Guess what. The middle eastern economy is based on oil. As soon as we don't need as much oil, there economy goes down the crapper. They depend on us more than we depend on their oil.

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think the draft is suitable in the proper conditions, like the fate of the world being at stake. In the case of Iraq, or Vietnam, there is no threat to the entire world, so why force 100'* to die against their will?
We still have a draft policy. I agree with you on this statement...until you say in the case of Iraq. There is no draft right now. There was no draft in the first gulf war. What are you talking about...

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People like ME don't take the world into our own hands and think everyone answers to us, because they DONT. Thats the job of the UN.
Well then the UN wasn't doing its job. The UN wasn't doing ****. They were at a stand still....for 10 years. The UN sanctioned Iraq all through the Clinton administration. Nothing was moving forward.



BTW, when it comes to the MDS, I agree with you for the most part. But in the way you think of your southern friends, you need a new attitude.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:43 PM   #66
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Amen, Logan.

Now let'* keep this debate CIVIL and impersonal from now on.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:46 PM   #67
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Sorry for being off-topic, but these political threads and such just get too far out of hand. Like the boss said, keep it civil and don't make yourself like a moron.
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Old 12-15-2004, 11:35 AM   #68
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Quote:
keep it civil and don't make yourself like a moron.
lol i think that one backfired!

Quote:
You are right. We did keep out of world war II until WE were attacked. Guess what, Pearl Harbor was an aweful thing. IMHO, 9/11 was worse. Yet tons of people didn't like us for going into Afghanastan. We aren't attacked, people are mad at us for not going to war. We are attacked and people are mad at us for going to war. Does that make sense? Then we go to Iraq, in an attempt to cease attacks on america, and then people get really mad. Makes sense...
Now that im done wondering how someone couldn't udnerstand something so fundamentally basic... I'll try and help you out, but chances are your too stubborn to think about it. People were mad at the US for not going to war in WW2 until Pearl Harbour, because most of the world was engulfed in war, and the war was going nowhere, while one of our biggest ALLIES sat on its *** because it didnt see the point in helping because it didn't involve you.

Now, not many people were mad about Afghanistan, personally, i think it was a just war. And im glad Canada was the 3rd largest contribution to that war effort. But Iraq was just a step in the wrong direction. In terms of global stability (what Bush vowed to enhance) it has done nothing, infact it has sent us leaping backwards. It was the wrong war at the wrong time. While all the terrorist training camps and nuclear missiles (which none of each have yet to be found) were flustering out new bombs, missiles and terrorists, other nations like North Korea, and Iran, and Isreal (no dont assume im anti semetic because im criticizing Isreal), are all actively procuring weapons of mass destruction. Syria has 50 times more terrorist connections then Iraq ever had.

Thats the reason people are mad. Your government picked the wrong war, at the wrong place, at the wrong time, for the wrong people, and has accomplished nothing, oh except that now people can be blown up freely rather under dictatorship in Iraq. What a way to stop those terrorists from killing the billions of other people in the

Im assuming you probably still dont get it, but thats alright. If you don't then theres no hope. This is why most of the world frankly doesn't like the US, sorry to say it so bluntly. Im sorry, but it is a fact it is the most disliked country in the world.
I do like the US, i think it has the potential to be a great society and great example for peace if it just quits blundering and doing the opposite of what it intends (politically)


Now back ON TOPIC.. I know people disagree with my standing on the BMD, now how about some arguments FOR it?? Rather than "oh i think its a good idea"
Oh by the way, todays test fire of a missile failed. Nice to know our only defence against incomming nuclear missiles might not even launch off the ground!

Ive spilled out tones of reasons why its theoretically going to cause more problems, so lets hear what you supporters have to say about it.
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:52 PM   #69
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Quote:
Im assuming you probably still dont get it, but thats alright. If you don't then theres no hope. This is why most of the world frankly doesn't like the US, sorry to say it so bluntly. Im sorry, but it is a fact it is the most disliked country in the world.
I do like the US, i think it has the potential to be a great society and great example for peace if it just quits blundering and doing the opposite of what it intends (politically)

Its good that were the most disliked country in the world, were also the most feared. Were also the most culturally diversified and the greatest amount of wealth. In my opinion most of us dont care what people like you say, because were at the top, and no reason to look down on hypocrits that complain about everything to just try to be heard. Sorry to say it so blunty bud.
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Old 12-15-2004, 03:12 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt95ssei
Quote:
keep it civil and don't make yourself like a moron.
lol i think that one backfired!

Quote:
You are right. We did keep out of world war II until WE were attacked. Guess what, Pearl Harbor was an aweful thing. IMHO, 9/11 was worse. Yet tons of people didn't like us for going into Afghanastan. We aren't attacked, people are mad at us for not going to war. We are attacked and people are mad at us for going to war. Does that make sense? Then we go to Iraq, in an attempt to cease attacks on america, and then people get really mad. Makes sense...
Now that im done wondering how someone couldn't udnerstand something so fundamentally basic... I'll try and help you out, but chances are your too stubborn to think about it.

Im assuming you probably still dont get it, but thats alright. If you don't then theres no hope.
Wow, I guess we are back to the implying stage. And there is no way in hell that you can deny it. I'm not trying to get the thread locked, but you aren't helping one bit. And if you don't think implying that I am retarded and REALLY dense isn't a personal attack, you really need to step away from the computer and reflect on your life

And no, I am not one of those people who takes things way to personal, and can't handle people thinking poorly of me, but give me a break here. Just because I don't entirely agree with you on the "off-topic" part of this thread doesn't give you the right to lash out. The really sad thing is that I agree with you for the most part on the "on-topic" part....yet you still say things that aren't necessary.

Directly bash me again and I will be forced to stoop to *your* level.

Now back to the discussion. Yeah, you are right that we stoodby and watched thousands of die in WW2 when we could have been helping, but it isn't like we just said, "Hey, lets not help." There obviously was a reason for it...and I learned that reason last year in my history class, when we covered WW2. Right now I don't remember what that reason was. Maybe I will look it up on the internet later tonight...but right now I am hungry.
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