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Old 11-19-2004, 12:10 PM   #1
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Default Arms race re-kindling??

With the withdraw of the U.*. from the 1972 ABM treatyby the imfamous Mr. Bush, and the development of the new so called Missle Defence System, other nations previously part of the treaty are resuming developments in their nuclear aresenal in response.

Russia for example is developing a whole new line of ICBM'*, SRBM'* (short range balistic missiles), and Anti balistic missile interceptors that can apparently manouver in ways which are yet unheard of, and apparently undetectable by systems that can or will be devloped anytime soon. They are to begin deployment in 2005, and many have been ordered by China, and Belarus. The designs of these new missiles are apprently to overcome improvements in the redesigned American Patriot missile, and to overcome the "Missile shield."

North Korea has aquired missiles which have the capability to strike US military forces in Guam, and Japan, along with the continental western US. They currently posses 6 different balistic missile technologies. They are midly capable missiles of anywhere from 280km up to 6000km on the Taepodong-2 which carries a 1 megaton warhead (whether it be nuclear, biological, or chemical)

China as another example currently posses fifteen different balistic missiles which have ranges from 300km all the way to 8000km while carrying a 700kiloton nuclear warhead.

It seems possible that government ignorance, and the soon ending quest for secure oil flow could once again shadow the future, just like the dropping of the atomic bombs did to the world in 1945 by obliterating 2 highly populated enemy cities, and providing the first major spark to the cold war.

It appears that the so called "war on terror" is still in all of the wrong places, and there doesnt seem to be hope of it shifting in the right direction if there is no oil involved.
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:46 PM   #2
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Let'* look at reality. I'm very well versed in this, especially with regards to North Korea. What do you think the odds are that NK would even consider an attack on US Territory? That'* like pointing a BB gun at the USS Missouri in full battle dress. Nukes for the North are simply a cry for 'credibility' and recognition. And the claims of the effectiveness of the technology they posses are wildly exaggerated. In addition, North Korea no longer has the 'Chinese insurance policy' it once had. And while all this is going on, behind the scenes, the North and South are still moving towards re-unification. I believe in my lifetime, I'll finally see the DMZ erased forever, just like the Iron Curtain was. I have personally been there, and watching it disappear will mean alot to me.

The enforcement of the 1972 ABM had become a joke long before George Sr. withdrew. It wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Those events leading up to our withdrawal are ultimately responsible for the reactions you posted by other countries, not the act of withdrawal itself. It was already moot. This treaty was voided by Russia and one other country (I forget which) before our first violation to officially announce by physical act that we felt their actions voided the treaty. This action was a simple transfer of a nuclear warhead to another facility via B52 (within the continental US).

We have to keep in mind that the Canadian Press is very liberal, even when compared to the US media sources. The true reasons behind the ABM missile treaty failure may not have been accurately represented north of the border.
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Old 11-19-2004, 01:18 PM   #3
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I was stationed in Guam at the NSA site for just under 3 years. Even though that place doesn't have the military significance it once had, I do think China would set its sights on it, but not to nuke it. (In fact, I would think nuking it would make it a territory of Atlantis since it'll go under). There isnt much there to protect it as far as US forces go....the big Naval base there is mainly a liberty port, with a submarine tender and a few subs homeported there. Anderson AFB is there, but all its really good for is a place to land the Space Shuttle should it have to land in the Pac region, and as a rest stop for fighter and bomber wings en route to Japan. All the other bases (NCTAMS, Seabee, Naval Hospital, and the Ammo Depot) are useless for defense purposes, so *if* China wanted it bad enough, they could take it w/o nukes.

Now *if* they did that, the US wouldn't hesitate to bomb that island, because if China set nukes there, it puts Hawaii w/in striking distance, AND a safe striking distance from Japan and Australia too if they were so inclined to do so.

Wouldn't THAT be lovely (sarcastic comment)

Oh yeah... I would think NK would do this before China would, because China would lose much more than it would gain from such a move...most in economical ways.
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Old 11-19-2004, 03:43 PM   #4
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Guam....I spent time there, too. Let'* not forget NAS Agana, which is also Brewer field. It'* half Naval Air, half Civilian air

And to make it worse (to give you an idea of the value of Guam as a military facility), when I was there in 1988, they still had an active squadron of A3D'*! What a target.
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Old 11-19-2004, 04:11 PM   #5
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I wouldnt consider North Korea a BB Gun. If they wouldnt to, they could do some damage on this world.
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Guam....I spent time there, too. Let'* not forget NAS Agana, which is also Brewer field. It'* half Naval Air, half Civilian air
Not anymore...its all civie now. In fact, some of it was used to expand the International Airport'* runways. The DMV and "courthouse" is on there now, and its base housing is now for low-to-no income families. Its funny...the highest-grossing fams on that island live in shipping containers and drive Toyota P-ups. Remember: Guam stands for "Give Us American Money"...when I left there in 2000 the island was supposed to vote on whether or not to petition to become a state instead of a territory. They (the Chamoros) wanted US funding for this, that, and the other, but didnt want to "put up" with our laws. Aint that some **IT.

Hey Will, remember the "elephant cage"? Thats were I was. I saw an A-3 once...hanging from the ceiling of the Pensacola NAS Air Museum.
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Let'* look at reality. I'm very well versed in this, especially with regards to North Korea. What do you think the odds are that NK would even consider an attack on US Territory? That'* like pointing a BB gun at the USS Missouri in full battle dress. Nukes for the North are simply a cry for 'credibility' and recognition. And the claims of the effectiveness of the technology they posses are wildly exaggerated. In addition, North Korea no longer has the 'Chinese insurance policy' it once had. And while all this is going on, behind the scenes, the North and South are still moving towards re-unification. I believe in my lifetime, I'll finally see the DMZ erased forever, just like the Iron Curtain was. I have personally been there, and watching it disappear will mean alot to me.

The enforcement of the 1972 ABM had become a joke long before George Sr. withdrew. It wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Those events leading up to our withdrawal are ultimately responsible for the reactions you posted by other countries, not the act of withdrawal itself. It was already moot. This treaty was voided by Russia and one other country (I forget which) before our first violation to officially announce by physical act that we felt their actions voided the treaty. This action was a simple transfer of a nuclear warhead to another facility via B52 (within the continental US).

We have to keep in mind that the Canadian Press is very liberal, even when compared to the US media sources. The true reasons behind the ABM missile treaty failure may not have been accurately represented north of the border.
Hey, it seems we DO agree on SOME things
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Old 11-20-2004, 12:03 AM   #8
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A little off-topic, except for the potential nuke payload, but the B52 boneyard on Guam is impressive. It'* a PILE of huge 52'*. Leftovers from Vietnam.

And North Korea IS a bb gun. Any way you slice it, they have no friends. If they accidentally fired a single SBM, every country in the world would flatten them.
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Old 11-20-2004, 12:06 AM   #9
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You think India would flatten them, or help them flatten everyone else? Plus, some BB Guns can kill, if used correctly
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Old 11-29-2004, 11:59 AM   #10
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The point of North Korea developing nukes isnt for them to use them i think. I think they are developing them to hand over to terrorists who will use them against US targets.

No one seemed to touch on the fact of the development of nuclear missiles which would be impervious to the Missile Shield. Obviously there is alot of distrust with the US abroad, if not all over the globe. Its a simple fact, the US is disliked by more people than it is liked, and there are statistics to prove that.

It could be due to your unilateral approach to everything, which is going to cost that nation just like it costed the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the French, and the Soviet Union. Its just a matter of time, hopefully it comes soon so that the human race may see hope once again.

Another cause is that US won't sign onto the Kyoto protocol. Canada, the entire European Union, Russia, even China and Mexico have singed on to it. But the US remains adament not to "hurt" its economy by helping slow down the rate of destruction of the world and humanity. The Euro is worth more than US dollar, and they have cut their greenhouse gas emmissions significantly. That obviousyl proves that Kyoto couldn't possibly damage an economy too bad. Thats alright though, history will point the blame in the right direction when the time comes. I guess Mr Bush don't realize this, or just doesnt care! Oh well, im Canadian!

When you see a picture of Hamilton, it looks much cleaner now adays. Look at L.A. How can people eve breathe there???

These are reasons im proud to be Canadian as we don't contribute to world problems, we try and clean up other peoples messes and wars, or we simply stay away from illigetimate wars is already proven in recent history... (wheres Osama????) Meh, might as well put Saddam in place of Osama, since he uhhh... Was rough on the people of his country? Oops! So is every other Islamic nation, maybe they like it that way? Hells no! Everybody is dieing for American "democracy" to be forced upon them.

Now with this Ukranian vote controversey. Why is the whole world squaking at the way an Independant nation performs its voting process. How come the Florida recount of 2000 in the US wasn't squaked at by the entire world?

Now, I don't agree with the terror attacks on the WTC, that is just barbarism, just like dropping bomblets over Afghanistan and Iraq, and a bunch of gun happy crazy americans running through Iraqi cities seeking retribution on civilians sorry, "insurgents" for something Iraqi women and children had nothing to do with in the first place. I see these "insurgents" as people fighting for freedom, trying to repel an outside invading force that doesn't belong there.

The single main root problem in this world today in my opinion and probably that of many other people, is American ignorance and their view that everyone should submit to them to increase their standard of life.

If Iraq was really a humanitarian liberation mission, why not choose a place such as Sudan, or Haiti, Congo, where children are forced into slavery, murdered, and raped by rebels, and even government troops. That to me is an issue truly screaming for help, not a state which was accused of having nuclear weapons, when nothing to this date has been even relating to this. And why can the US have thousands of nuclear weapons, but another nation that tries to get them must be invaded and pillaged because it wishes to seek a nuclear "detterance" and mutually assured destruction. Why not North Korea who admits to having a nuclear weapon, and is openly commited to developing more!

Why would anyone consider canceling the Iraqi debt while they have billions of dollars of oil profits sitting below them, while in the mean time African nations are so far in debt they have to force their people to work it off and at the end of the day, cant even feed their own families and don't have any resources to sell to make any bit of money. Oh ya! To repair the damage done by fighter jets, and bombers, tanks and artillery raining on peoples homes. The US government should pay for the damage they have done, not make the assaulted nation pay for it themselves.

I eagerly await the time when my generation is in control of the world, and we will show our war making greedy fathers how to make the planet safe, clean, and sustainable, and war free, and not horde everything to our selves so that we may get fat, lazy, and watch tv all day long as millions of others starve to death.

I don't hate americans, i don't hate the American Government. I dislike Bush very much for his twisted ways of thinking. Theres more to this world than North America, and even alot of older Canadians think like that also and it pisses me off to think my great nation could drop to such a standard as being greedy and selfish.

~Matt
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