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Old 11-29-2004, 01:52 PM   #11
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These are reasons im proud to be Canadian as we don't contribute to world problems, we try and clean up other peoples messes and wars, or we simply stay away from illigetimate wars is already proven in recent history... (wheres Osama????) Meh, might as well put Saddam in place of Osama, since he uhhh... Was rough on the people of his country? Oops! So is every other Islamic nation, maybe they like it that way? Hells no! Everybody is dieing for American "democracy" to be forced upon them.
Matt, look at the position Canada is in right now with regards to defense. The only thing that keeps anyone from messing with Canada at this point is your Southern Brothers. I personally have no problem whatsoever with that, but it'* something to keep in mind. The strength of the US is your security. If we were a weaker nation, you would be too.
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Old 11-29-2004, 02:18 PM   #12
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I think that full out, dragged on war is the only thing that'll bring out nuclear warheads in the modern age.

THe big worry is things like a backpack bomb, or a dirty bomb. Someone could carry a 1 kiloton bomb on their back into Times square, Chi-town, LA, etc.

To me i believe that will happen, not necessarily to us, but who knows, maybe israel, maybe russia, iraq. They're out there, and affordable to terrorists. Once that happens that'll make post 9-11 seem like cakewalk security.
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Old 11-30-2004, 05:07 PM   #13
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Regarding defence, why would Canada need an invasionary army when we don't set our sights on conqeuring weaker nations? We don't believe in the ideals of the US as being everyones police, and i pray we never turn that ruthless.

Statistics prove Canada is one of the most liked nations in the world, as appose to our southern war mongering government. Also, the whole point of this thread isn't to bash either country, its to point out that your government is wasting money on useless things that are just going to add to how much it has already destablized the world. Why would any nation attack Canada? The only military campaigns we ever take part in is peacekeeping, and peacemaking operations. We don't set our sites on crude oil and increasing government cash flow as we can legitamately earn it on our own on our own free soil.

Maybe its because the US was founded on war and destruction in order to create what you would brand "freedom", which is somewhat different from the Canadian idea of freedom. Guantanamo Bay Cuba : 100'* of people are being held by the US government, without being charged, without having contact with the outside world, even people aged 16-19 are being held there. That in Canadian terms is Cruel and Unusual punishment. Then people wonder why there are terrorist attacks against them. The simplest cause of terrorism is ignorance, and yes i know the patriots will blindly defend their governments decisions because they were raised to obey without questioning or stopping wrong doings.

It'* clear we are doing something right with our smaller more technology and information based armed forces, and our government is so far doing a great job at keeping homeless off the streets, by taking some from the rich so they do not horde inconcievable amounts of money while others starve and live on streets. They also been doing a good job at stopping gang activity and murders considering we have what, 100 or something murders a year? Look at detroit alone, where 100'* are killed yearly and who knows how many homeless.

That problem could be caused by the governments lax or non existant gun control policies. I talked to someone in New York, he is 17, and he told me he has 2 hand guns and a military M-16 without the automatic firing mechanism he bought on the street. I would be embarassed if someone in Canada could get a hold of weapons like that period, let alone on our safe streets, and i know any Canadian would agree with me on that.

If the US is the only thing protecting us, then tell me what southern or northern nation is protecting Australia from invaders? The fact is, they also are a nation with a good reputation on the world stage, and obviously no one would attack them because they have no reason to, most outside the backyard would agree that the same cannot be said for others.

I wish i could read the history books on our era in 500 years or so, to see what peoples opinions will be about what has happend to this world.

Lastly, i in no way hate americans, but i do withhold respect from those who dont respect others freedoms and opinions, and vice verca.
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Old 11-30-2004, 07:17 PM   #14
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Regarding defence, why would Canada need an invasionary army when we don't set our sights on conqeuring weaker nations? We don't believe in the ideals of the US as being everyones police, and i pray we never turn that ruthless.
Nobody said anything about 'invasionary' army. You don't even have defense. Other than the US.

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100'* of people are being held by the US government, without being charged, without having contact with the outside world, even people aged 16-19 are being held there
These are suspected terrorists. In other words, they are considered expatriates. They don't represent any recognized government or nation. But in the interest of fairness, we'd be happy to release them at the Canadian border

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If the US is the only thing protecting us, then tell me what southern or northern nation is protecting Australia from invaders? The fact is, they also are a nation with a good reputation on the world stage, and obviously no one would attack them because they have no reason to, most outside the backyard would agree that the same cannot be said for others.
Both Canada and Austrailia have mutual defense pacts with the US.
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Old 12-01-2004, 03:37 PM   #15
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Well, I think it'* pretty obvious who you would have voted for, Matt...


The point remains that North Korea has no REASON to attack us. "They don't like us" isn't a valid argument for starting a nuclear conflict.

Second, I don't know where you're getting your facts from, but your arguments are a little threadbare at times. Did I seriously hear you say that you didn't know of anyone that disagreed with the 2000 election in Florida? Dude, what planet are you living on? That'* all we heard about for a month and a half in this country! Remember the big legal trial? Maybe the only reason that you didn't hear anyone complain about it was that the whiners in this country were loud enough to drown them out.

Third, you speak about the atomic bombs we dropped in Hiroshima and Nagasaki... well, buddy, I'd like to hear what you'd have to say to any World War II infantry soldier that made it through Iwo Jima. We dropped those bombs for our soldiers. Our analysts predicted that the war would have continued for a further two years. When we were island hopping to strike at the Japanese mainland, we had villagers attacking our Marines with SPEARS. We had already been firebombing Tokyo for several weeks... why didn't we just drop the bombs over Tokyo, if we were hoping to "kill as many japs as possible?" We hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki because they were cities with strong industry and military ties, and because they weren't really all that big compared to where we COULD have been bombing.

Nuclear war is a scary thing... but being exposed to it with no defense whatsoever on the basis of a good-faith agreement with countries like Libya (!!!!!) is just f*cking scary.

Here'* what I'd rather have happen: make the missile defense system, and then just give the damned thing away. Give it to Russia, give it to Israel, give it to Iran, give it to China, and then don't worry about the damned thing anymore. If everyone has a defense, then no one can run the offense. End of story.
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Old 12-01-2004, 04:06 PM   #16
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No defence huh.. Hmm.. Well, considering we have no (zero) defence, we must not have an airforce.

The size of our armed forces is meant for defence, not to allow our government to begin colonial wars unlike some others and their lap dogs. Im glad our current Prime Minister is the way he is and not like Blair. Asides from our defence forces, we have expeditionary peace keeping forces, and reserve forces. I plan on joining our non existant armed forces, i guess they are going to pay me to pretend to keep the peace, only at home! LOL

Sept 11, 2001 : Canadian CF-18'* were scrambled to Washington DC to patrol the air space around the capital. Since we have no defence, these planes must of been nothing more than a holographic projection of a plane.

Currenlty the Canadian military is involved in the following operations:

OP Accius - Afghanistan - UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA)
OP Altair - Arabian Gulf Region - International Campaign Against Terrorism
OP Athena - Afghanistan - International Security Assistance Force
OP Foundation - Tampa, Florida - United States' Central Command
OP Iolaus - Iraq - United Nations Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI)
OP Sirius - Sigonella, Italy - NATO Campaign Against Terrorism
OP Bronze - Bosnia/Herzegovina - NATO Stabilization Force (SFOR)
OP Palladium - Bosnia/Herzegovina - NATO Stabilization Force (SFOR)
OP Hamlet - Haiti - United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH)
OP Calumet - Sinai - Multinational Force and Observers (MFO)
OP Danaca - Golan Heights - UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF)
OP Jade - Jerusalem - UN Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO)
OP Snowgoose - Cyprus - UN Forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP)
OP Crocodile - Congo - UN Organization Mission in the Congo
OP Reptile - Sierra Leone - UN Mission in Sierra Leone (UNAMSIL)
OP Safari - Sudan - United Nations Mission in Sudan (UNMISUD)
OP Sculpture - Sierra Leone - International Military Advisory Training Team (IMATT)

Man i need to call National Defence and ask them how they do all these missions at once without defence forces! Its blowing my mind! Maybe its the Canadian geese and Ground hogs driving around in our M-1995SC Bonneville tanks firing their Canadian bacon sizzlers and shoulder fired mad cow launchers..

Remember (probably weren't around at this time) the only international continental war in North America between the US, and Canada and Britain, if history is correct, may i say i believe the white house was burned down after the US was repelled while trying to invade Canada?

On a side note, i'm impressed by Mr. Bush'* thanks for Canada'* help on Sept 11. I didn't think he had it in him to admit owing a debt to another being. Very impressive he seems to be changing this time around. I hope he will change from his past attitude so that America may reform its policies to allow it to be the wonderful (and not most internationally disliked) nation it has the potential to be.

Anyway it seems will is getting a little touched by this, so this will be my last post here as it is being turned to a childish discussion over who is better.

Matt
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Old 12-01-2004, 08:48 PM   #17
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No, keep it up.

I'd like to see a friendly comparison of the decline of the Canadian Forces over the last 50 years. I know Canada has been steadily cutting forces over the last 10 years at least. We have a couple Canuck military folks as members here that might chime in. One is active duty in the Canadian Navy, and a Gearhead here.

The last report I read showed that the Canadian forces had degraded to the point that they weren't a viable defense force any longer.

Canada'* military expenditures in 2004 were 9 Billion dollars. The US spent 399 Billion. That'* a huge disparity. For a comparison, here'* the current Canadian Navy fleet:
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/mspa_fl...eet_home_e.asp
34 Vessels total. The US has 290.

Here'* another interesting site explaining the state of the Canadian military:
http://www.zuchowicz.com/nikstuff/CanMil/

My intention isn't to point fingers or find fault. It'* to point out that Canada relies on the US more and more as each year passes. Particularly in defense.
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Old 12-02-2004, 01:03 AM   #18
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keep in mind that the USA has a lot more people to defend and we are always it seems like everywhere in the world at once. personally i don't think canada needs that larg of an army because there isn't much to defend from, what would a country attack canada for anyways, the beer? some hockey players? and maby a good fishing spot? (now i'm only poking a little fun at the great white north)

but i do find it funny that if bush is convicted of war crimes by cananda he could be infact arrested there if he visits after his presidency is overwith. i would actually watch and laugh.

oh and regarding north korea and nukes, has anyone seen the show on comedy central called shorties watching shorties? one comic has a great view on the north korea nuke problem. he basically says that he isn't afraid because if you have ever owned anything from north korea you know it just breaks really fast so thier missles can't be all that reliable.

keep it in mind and try to look at things with some humor otherwise you'll end up too stressed out and eventually go bald (if you are a man of course)
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Old 12-03-2004, 12:23 PM   #19
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Please don't ever run for presidency! I know with a comical attitude, you would never get elected, (in Canada anyway). The day someone calls a nuclear weapon a joke because it probably won't work anyway since its from North Korea is the day we forget all the lessons we learnt in the past, like the fact that a terrorist couldn't destroy the WTC because its built to withstand terrorist attacks... Look what that attitude brought to it!!

Also, Canada military expenditures are actually going up and will continue going up over a period of i think 9 years by 3 billion each year for the first 4 i think and then 1.X after that. What is the purpose for this!! We don't need a huge military as we don't have enemies to defend ourselves from.

What is the purpose of wasting 400 billion dollars on 300+ warships.... How many foreign navies have tried to penetrate American shores in the last 50 years?? LOL The fact is its a waste of money while inside the country there are so many problems such as racism, gangs, cocaine trade for BC weed. Bush squaks at our export of pot to your country while he sits idly by as thousands of kilograms of cocaine and happily shipped to the north each year.

Why not try to give the homeless a place to live and try to make a life for themselves? (I know some idiot will say that the homeless are homeless because they want to be that way, or its entirely their fault....) Why not figure out solutions to your water epidemic, such as desalinizing salt water since you have barely any southern fresh water. Instead of spending money on guns and bombs, try turning your backs to war and death for a decade. Life quality would improve greatly.

Look at the Columbine shootings and the countless others, there must be a problem with the lack of correct gun control procedures. Sure, blame the parents. Its always the individuals fault, and is in no way a result of the states laws and ideals.

Anyway, no one has even attempted to touch on the fact that the Missile Shield has more than enough potential of starting a new arms race (looks like it has already started that), but i guess we can ignore it until its too late.. again... since thats the lazy way of life. Our government is going in the right direction so far for not participating in the project, and i hope it stays that way because i don't want the Canadian name to be covered in blood and tainted in darkness, as we have one of the better international reputations in the world, maybe not in terms of military mass.. lol...

This is all for discussion and opinion responses. Maybe i will stick around here, lets just try to keep it away from trying to figure out who is stronger as it wasn't the point of this.

Mr. Bush came to Canada and told PM Paul Martin that Canada should adopt an aggressive foreign policy. Martin rejected this idea, thank god.

I find it mind boggling how people of a nation can actually sit by as their country creeps further and further into chaos, and everybody outside can see, but its almost like nobody inside can see. Maybe there is an alternate reality there, maybe you are being subject to propoganda, i don't live there so i can't compare it to what the rest of the world sees. Theres protests in almost every other democratic nation against what is destablizing the world. Ignoring the UN, the main body which the member nations agreed to be governed by in terms of international actions, is a major step in the wrong direction if we want to live in a safe, peacefull, and equal world.

Things haven't changed much from the days of slavery, it is just being performed in industrial ways in places you don't hear about in your country.
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Old 12-03-2004, 12:37 PM   #20
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No time to respond to your whole post right now, but.....

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What is the purpose of wasting 400 billion dollars on 300+ warships.... How many foreign navies have tried to penetrate American shores in the last 50 years?? LOL The fact is its a waste of money while inside the country there are so many problems such as racism, gangs, cocaine trade for BC weed.
The US Navy serves all countries worldwide. How? Imagine the chaos if there wasn't a Navy presence of any type in the world oceans. Piracy and Privateerism are still a part of world culture, but you don't hear of it much. A Naval presence is what keeps this in check. The result is lower consumer pricing on imported goods. Because insurance costs of shipments are lower. It'* a far-reaching effect. And nearly a third of the US Navy vessels are active in the war on drugs
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