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Old 03-01-2004, 10:09 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfedog50
I just wanna say i think it'* awesome that Christian, Non-christian, unsure, ect. alike can come here and have a civilized conversation about religion withoutht anyone getting bent out of shape. I think that says a lot for the type of people here.
I second that!! We have a VERY high class group here at BC, we are all VERY respectful of one another and I think that goes a LONG ways towards mutual learning and discovery. When I made my post, I was simply wondering what the general opinion among good friends here was of the movie. My wife and I plan to make an evening from it, I mean..you cant just go SEE a movie..theres dinner too and possible babysitting costs ETC, We havent been OUT to a movie in 7-8 years or so, and this one, from the talk here...seems it will be VERY moving and we might need some decompress time after.

In such a short time..I have come to value everyone here at BC very highly.
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:14 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevo
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmfan2118
I totally agree about the faith thing, and I think its more the little things that get turned around and mistaken not the big parts of the event, I guess thats why I am going to be a history teacher as I usually have to have physical proof of something before I believe in it. (yes I know that can lead to a bleak outlook on life but I have lost a lot of "faith" in recent times seeing what goes on with people who worship yet have horrible things happen to them)
I love history too! Are you more into World history or what? I love studying ancient world history.

If you want to read a book or two that deal with the Historicity of Jesus and the Bible here'* a few titles:

"The New Evidence that Demands a verdict" and " More than a Carpenter." These are by Josh McDowell

A few titles that are for those who are skeptics are:

"A Skeptic'* Search for God." by Ralph O. Muncaster, and "Mere Christiantity" by C.*. Lewis.

Not trying to push anything, nor am I looking to debate, but thought you or other'* may want to read up on it since it'* an issue.

Another good author and appologist worth reading is Ravi Zacharias. His works are very intelligent and thought provoking.


People forget that the Bible is not A book but sixty six books. They were compiled together, but are multiple historical documents written by many over a few millenia or so.

Also, Josephus mentions Christ and his followers in his works too.

So technically, from a historical standpoint, there are much more than one single source reguarding this.

Just FYI.....
Im into all kinds of history, major topics I study are Alexander the great, Vietnam war, World War Two, Special Forces, hidden US armies of the 80'* and militarism since the French revolution all this with a sprinkling of Canadian and Medieval history
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Old 03-01-2004, 11:38 PM   #53
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Wolfedog explained it very well. Sometimes bad things happen but the Lord always finds a way to turn things into good. We may not always see things right away or realize how he works in our lives but he is there and we have the choice to accept him or reject him.
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Old 03-02-2004, 01:43 AM   #54
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Guys I have a question, this isnt me trying to start something just being curious but what is the generally accepted response within the Christian community to those that say "if your god forgives all why does he let good caring people die of cancer and other things" just wondering
Wolfedog had some good points. Nice job on the Freewill concept. My ideas may be similar or repetitive, but I’m just staying with my thought process.

First of all, this is a very tough question. I have three thoughts:

First, we need to define what "good" is. What are the attributes of a good person? The apostle Paul says in Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

Humanity is totally sinful and totally depraved- that is, we do not have the capacity to do anything technically "good." We are all sinners and we fall short of God'* glory. IF I do anything good, it is only a direct result of the Holy Spirit working through me as a willing vessel for Him to use. When someone accepts Christ'* gift of salvation, they immediately receive the Holy Spirit into their heart to join with their own spirit- kind of parallel it. Our spirit is still present, which means we still have freewill and the ability to sin. The Holy Spirit is there to convict us of our sin (to lead to repentance) and also to comfort/help us when we are in need.

Second, I’d like to consider 9/11. Preface: I don’t mean to downplay any emotions, or attack anyone because I’m sure in our audience we have some that were touched closely by the events that took place. Here’* my thought. Many people asked the question: “Why did this happen.” Well, if we consider our society’* state of sinfulness (which has been ever present since Eden), are we really surprised? I propose the better question to be: “Why doesn’t stuff like this happen all the time?” Another angle- is the Superbowl Halftime Show really a surprise to anyone? Look at the deterioration of society in media, politics…

Thirdly, the idea of trials in our lives. Again, in Romans, Paul talks pretty clearly about this, the purposes, and the results in chapter 5:1-6
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.


There is a master plan in the midst of everything that affects us. We clearly have free will to do as we please. The suicide bombing terrorists had free will, and it affected others immensely. God is always in control, but like Bruce Almighty asked, “How do you make somebody love you without affecting free will?” We are given a choice.

A quick thought I had from my first point: I mentioned salvation as a gift. Christ died for everyone- essentially providing the gift of eternal life with Him in Heaven. Will everyone go to Heaven? No. See, there can be a present under the tree with your name on it. I was thoughtfully bought, carefully wrapped, and your name written just so on the card. BUT, if you do not receive that gift, if you leave it under the tree, it will be of no benefit to you at all.

jeff
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Old 03-02-2004, 01:45 AM   #55
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ha, thats the truth... sheesh
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Old 03-02-2004, 02:39 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbayne
Quote:

Guys I have a question, this isnt me trying to start something just being curious but what is the generally accepted response within the Christian community to those that say "if your god forgives all why does he let good caring people die of cancer and other things" just wondering
Wolfedog had some good points. Nice job on the Freewill concept. My ideas may be similar or repetitive, but I’m just staying with my thought process.

First of all, this is a very tough question. I have three thoughts:

First, we need to define what "good" is. What are the attributes of a good person? The apostle Paul says in Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

Humanity is totally sinful and totally depraved- that is, we do not have the capacity to do anything technically "good." We are all sinners and we fall short of God'* glory. IF I do anything good, it is only a direct result of the Holy Spirit working through me as a willing vessel for Him to use. When someone accepts Christ'* gift of salvation, they immediately receive the Holy Spirit into their heart to join with their own spirit- kind of parallel it. Our spirit is still present, which means we still have freewill and the ability to sin. The Holy Spirit is there to convict us of our sin (to lead to repentance) and also to comfort/help us when we are in need.

Second, I’d like to consider 9/11. Preface: I don’t mean to downplay any emotions, or attack anyone because I’m sure in our audience we have some that were touched closely by the events that took place. Here’* my thought. Many people asked the question: “Why did this happen.” Well, if we consider our society’* state of sinfulness (which has been ever present since Eden), are we really surprised? I propose the better question to be: “Why doesn’t stuff like this happen all the time?” Another angle- is the Superbowl Halftime Show really a surprise to anyone? Look at the deterioration of society in media, politics…

Thirdly, the idea of trials in our lives. Again, in Romans, Paul talks pretty clearly about this, the purposes, and the results in chapter 5:1-6
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.


There is a master plan in the midst of everything that affects us. We clearly have free will to do as we please. The suicide bombing terrorists had free will, and it affected others immensely. God is always in control, but like Bruce Almighty asked, “How do you make somebody love you without affecting free will?” We are given a choice.

A quick thought I had from my first point: I mentioned salvation as a gift. Christ died for everyone- essentially providing the gift of eternal life with Him in Heaven. Will everyone go to Heaven? No. See, there can be a present under the tree with your name on it. I was thoughtfully bought, carefully wrapped, and your name written just so on the card. BUT, if you do not receive that gift, if you leave it under the tree, it will be of no benefit to you at all.

jeff
Sorry about this but as one thing is siad then another pops into my head, If people who believe in the Christian faith are still sinners now then what was the point in Jesus dying, I mean from what I have learned he died to forgive sins but if we are still sinners what was the purpose its like spending a week cleaning a house and then trashing it in one night.

Free will is a very touchy subject because do we truly have free will???? I believe we do to a certain extent but not completely for there are many standards and regulations that somewhat "control" my free will but there are many philosophers who would argue we dont have free will but thats a subject for another day

Second question, actually more like an inquiry how do you guys (both followers and non followers of religion) feel about the state of organized religion today. In my opinion I think its getting to be fairly rediculous and often (but not always) more about money then faith. I would like to see these ministers and leaders explain to me why they need 50,000 square feet churches with gigantic tv'* and thier mansions when monks were doing the exact same job and they lived quite a simple life. Its sad to say but it appears Churches are quickly becoming country clubs instead of places of worship.

My one final thought (yes Im sure you're sick of my ranting) Why was Janet Jacksons nipple such a big deal??? its a natural part of a womens body, if you ask me whats causing the breakdown are networks that air reality tv shows mocking little people in a bachelor spin off, or the news reporters who would rather shoot the story of the person who kills their entire family in a disgusting way and not even make mention of some good things that happened that day or giving somebody like Paris Hilton crap loads of money to live like a regular person when you have networks that actually teach people things and they have to struggle to stay in business

Whew Im out of breath
Thanks for listening
Andrew
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Old 03-02-2004, 02:58 AM   #57
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Finally, something I can comment on! (I'm somewhere between Agnostic and Athiest religiously. I don't know that I believe in a Supreme Being, but I also find it hard to believe that this planet only generated one intelligent species by accident).

As far as JJ, the only reason it'* a big deal is that we live in a Puritanical society, that while it wants it'* sins and deprvities, it doesn't want it talked about out loud. The difference I see between us and most European communities was explained quite well by the Bitchy wokman on Designing women describing the difference between th North and South

"In the north they wonder if you have a crazy family member. In the south they just wonder which one it is" (made sense to me for a minute anyways)

Basically, we want to see stuff like that, but due to the Puritanical roots of our country, and a governmen and leadership'* dependency/fear of the church, instead of admitting we enjoy it, we watch it by studying the "scandal".


Now I'm confused.....

Basically, lighten up America, they're just *****!!
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Old 03-02-2004, 03:08 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOS95B

Basically, lighten up America, they're just *****!!
EXACTLY my feelings ,




also Im with you MOS Im agnostic myself but having an interest in History and teaching it one must know the stories of many points throughout history
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Old 03-02-2004, 03:15 AM   #59
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Sorry about this but as one thing is siad then another pops into my head, If people who believe in the Christian faith are still sinners now then what was the point in Jesus dying, I mean from what I have learned he died to forgive sins but if we are still sinners what was the purpose its like spending a week cleaning a house and then trashing it in one night.
Here'* my example i teach to my highschoolers. Say i am driving my bonnie down the freeway at a speed of 95mph. This is exceding the speed limit by 30mph and i get a ticket. This ticket that i owe the Dupage County Clerk is for the sum of 200 billion dollars. What is unique about that? I, Jeff, cannot pay it. I am totally incapable of paying it, no matter how much I try, work at it, or think i can. So, The president of Pontiac- he'* a nice guy, makes good cars, he says to me, hey Jeff, i'll pay your debt for you. I say, whew, thanks. He makes out a check with his name on it, his address. I put it in an envelope along with my ticket with my name on it. my debt amount = his check amount. Will the Dupage County Clerk accept it as due payment? Of course. He just wants the debt paid. (for what its worth) the court system is just. The Clerk cannot wipe away my debt without payment. It has to be paid, the debt has to be satisfied. So, after the clerk see'* my debt paid, my record is cleared in his eyes- i owe nothing more. I am still a lawbreaking speed demon, but to the Clerk, i'm am flawless.

I am a wretched sinner. I have commited sin that i can never hope to pay for. No amount of good deeds i do will ever make up for it. Christ has offered to pay my debt. I simply have to accept that gift, that check. Then, God the Father looks at me and says Jeff, you are a rotten sinner. Then Jesus steps up and says, wait Father, Jeff has accepted my payment. The Father then says, ok, fine, Jeff you are righteous in my eyes. Thats why I am considered righteous. not because i've stopped sinning, but because of the way i am viewed by the Father.

The example is deeper as well, because when i sin again, i am yet again in debt to the Father. Christ didn't just die for my past sins however, He died for present and future sins as well. Its like He didn't just write a check for the one time. He wrote a check saying, anytime you need to dip into My account, its open for you Jeff.

Quote:
Second question, actually more like an inquiry how do you guys (both followers and non followers of religion) feel about the state of organized religion today. In my opinion I think its getting to be fairly rediculous and often (but not always) more about money then faith. I would like to see these ministers and leaders explain to me why they need 50,000 square feet churches with gigantic tv'* and thier mansions when monks were doing the exact same job and they lived quite a simple life. Its sad to say but it appears Churches are quickly becoming country clubs instead of places of worship.
Unfortunately, you are very right in a lot of cases. Here'* my only defense. Religion is stupid. It is pointless and futile. One may say I have religion. I say no, i have a Relationship. A relationship with my Saviour that is personal and real. He desires to know me and I desire to know Him.

You are right though, it is a tool that people have capitalized on. All i can say is... I am accountable for myself and my actions. I'm not accountable for my parents, or even my children. Free will is individual, and as much as I'd like to control others, that is not my job.

Quote:
My one final thought (yes Im sure you're sick of my ranting) Why was Janet Jacksons nipple such a big deal??? its a natural part of a womens body, if you ask me whats causing the breakdown are networks that air reality tv shows mocking little people in a bachelor spin off, or the news reporters who would rather shoot the story of the person who kills their entire family in a disgusting way and not even make mention of some good things that happened that day or giving somebody like Paris Hilton crap loads of money to live like a regular person when you have networks that actually teach people things and they have to struggle to stay in business
Again, i agree with you. It is pathetic the way people are portrayed, mocked, almost dehumanized by the media.

Thanks for listening as well
jeff
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Old 03-02-2004, 03:24 AM   #60
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Thanks for clearing a lot of my questions up I feel a lot more informed now , as for the relationship instead of religion I couldnt agree with you more, as I myself am not particulary religious nor do I consider myself having a relationship but several of my good friends do have a relationship and they are what I consider a truly Christian person. It doesnt matter to them if one Sunday they have a chat with the big guy upstairs in the Church and the next with him while walking in a park just as long as some type of communication goes on, its very pessimestic but unfortunatly with many things in this world once you bring a human element in to lead or guide it that is when often the object or group is led astray and unfortunatly from pedophile scandals to extremism once healthy and helpful religionsto everyone have become a tool of hurt and advancement for some.


*wow could I try and fit in anymore rants, this soapbox is starting to crumble *
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