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Old 10-22-2006, 02:57 AM   #21
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Interesting indeed. I do know though,

"Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races"

But around 300 is indeed impressive. It would be faster if in a smaller/lighter car, though hell, even my Reatta is around 3400 lbs stock, and that'* a two seater. I'd think a Bonnie is not much more than that. With all this known, it seems I could easily step up my game if I wished

For what I'd eventually like to be at, I guess I won't need a Series II after all
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Old 10-22-2006, 12:15 PM   #22
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You don't need a Series 2. You may WANT one though.

With all the mods available for both, the choice you have to make is WHERE do you want it? Torque down low, or torque higher up?

Chadow427 runs mid 13'* in his 2000. I can beat him to the 1/8 (have video from WCBF that clearly shows it) by a length or two. He runs me down from there. Beating him to the 1/8 was done chirping tires in 2nd gear, and losing a bit off the launch with a slight spin.
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Old 10-23-2006, 02:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Estimates from the habitual WCBF track hounds that drove her (nearly everyone did) put the Zilla right on the edge of the 13'* with good traction.
Your car runs very well, and I give you props for all you have done, you do know a lot about the series 1'* and have taken yours further than anyone else on here. However, It traps 92mph....IT DOESN'T RUN 13'*!

I've never seen a car trapping less than ~97 or so break into the 13'* and that was on a damn good run.

Quote:
The video is posted. But remember, a Series 1 is alot more likely to be able to do that than a Series 2, simply because the torque peak is developed at a much lower RPM.
While I agree the torque PEAK is developed at a lower RPM, the torque the series II is making at YOUR peak torque is still just as much torque as you, its torque just increases past that up to its peak. Not only that, but peak torque in a series II car is made at right around 3000rpm or so. The torque convertor in a 2.93 geared SII L67 is 2200 stall, that puts you ALMOST at the peak torque anyways. Once you are going a few mph you've already hit over 3k rpm and are at the torque peak. Making torque below that really doesn't help because as you know, the damn tires just spin which is useless.

Also, at your shifts, you're nowhere near your peak torque. The Series II is a lot closer to its peak torque at shift rpm and therefor would actually be able to do it easier. Yours does it because you have a shift kit....my L36 barked the tires on the 1-2 shift N/A.

Quote:
Chadow427 runs mid 13'* in his 2000. I can beat him to the 1/8 (have video from WCBF that clearly shows it) by a length or two. He runs me down from there. Beating him to the 1/8 was done chirping tires in 2nd gear, and losing a bit off the launch with a slight spin.
With equal traction, the SII car is going to have you the whole way. The only reason you beat him was due to traction or launching differences.

Even my L36 N/A had more power down low than your SI L67 according to the times I've seen. I went 9.35 @ 75 in the 1/8 in my L36 car with 4 mods, and I can garuntee you that even a stock SII L67 car has more low end balls then that did. I really can't see how if a basically stock L36 can take you to the 1/8 that a 13 second L67 car couldn't.... It was driver error or traction, period.


I hate to burst your bubble, but a car that traps 92mph is capable of mid 14'* at best. But, not that I would know, its not like I've had any experience with 14 second cars before. (looks at own sig... )
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Old 10-23-2006, 02:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
but peak torque in a series II car is made at right around 3000rpm or so
Peak tq in a S2 L67 is @ 3600rpms. L36 is @ 4000.
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonnie94ssei
Quote:
but peak torque in a series II car is made at right around 3000rpm or so
Peak tq in a S2 L67 is @ 3600rpms. L36 is @ 4000.
That is what GM rates them at, they also say its only 280ft.lbs, when I've seen them dyno that much to the tires stock... Actually some years GM rated them at 3200 for the SII L67. Have you seen a dyno for one? An actual engine dyno, assuming its a stock cam car, will show you the torque peak is lower, especially on a pullied one. But either way, the torque it makes at the Series I'* peak is just as much.
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbtk2
Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Estimates from the habitual WCBF track hounds that drove her (nearly everyone did) put the Zilla right on the edge of the 13'* with good traction.
Your car runs very well, and I give you props for all you have done, you do know a lot about the series 1'* and have taken yours further than anyone else on here. However, It traps 92mph....IT DOESN'T RUN 13'*!
I'll take Shadd, Paul, and Pdad'* opinions at a pretty high level of 'expertness' in this case, since they've driven the car and seen it run. Thanks for your opinion, though.


Quote:
I've never seen a car trapping less than ~97 or so break into the 13'* and that was on a damn good run.
2nd gear traction issues prevent the car from trapping at it'* potential.

Quote:
Quote:
The video is posted. But remember, a Series 1 is alot more likely to be able to do that than a Series 2, simply because the torque peak is developed at a much lower RPM.
While I agree the torque PEAK is developed at a lower RPM, the torque the series II is making at YOUR peak torque is still just as much torque as you, its torque just increases past that up to its peak. Not only that, but peak torque in a series II car is made at right around 3000rpm or so. The torque convertor in a 2.93 geared SII L67 is 2200 stall, that puts you ALMOST at the peak torque anyways. Once you are going a few mph you've already hit over 3k rpm and are at the torque peak. Making torque below that really doesn't help because as you know, the damn tires just spin which is useless.

Also, at your shifts, you're nowhere near your peak torque. The Series II is a lot closer to its peak torque at shift rpm and therefor would actually be able to do it easier. Yours does it because you have a shift kit....my L36 barked the tires on the 1-2 shift N/A.
I beg to differ. The S1 L67 shifts AT peak torque. Which is why we burn up 2nd gear clutches and blow out differentials at 2nd shifts, and the S2 doesn't.

Quote:
Quote:
Chadow427 runs mid 13'* in his 2000. I can beat him to the 1/8 (have video from WCBF that clearly shows it) by a length or two. He runs me down from there. Beating him to the 1/8 was done chirping tires in 2nd gear, and losing a bit off the launch with a slight spin.
With equal traction, the SII car is going to have you the whole way. The only reason you beat him was due to traction or launching differences.
Wrong again. I had traction issues off the line, and at the 2nd gear shift, and he barely chirped the tires off the line, and didn't chirp second at all. I had him soundly at the 1/8, and it'* clearly shown in the video. I ran a 14.6 to his 13.7, all the ground he made up was in the back half. Watch the video.

Quote:
Even my L36 N/A had more power down low than your SI L67 according to the times I've seen. I went 9.35 @ 75 in the 1/8 in my L36 car with 4 mods, and I can garuntee you that even a stock SII L67 car has more low end balls then that did. I really can't see how if a basically stock L36 can take you to the 1/8 that a 13 second L67 car couldn't.... It was driver error or traction, period.
And what is your L36 powered vehicle? Oh, it'* a GP. And the weight difference? Gear ratio? Track Prep? I ran 9.405 @ 72.95 in basic street trim other than ELC, and that was with breaking loose off the line and 2nd gear. Yes, my 2nd gear shift comes BEFORE the 1/8 marker, and cost me dearly. But I STILL beat a mid-13 S2 to the 1/8. Think about that.

This isn't idle smack-talk. My runs were all witnessed by over a dozen members here.


Quote:
I hate to burst your bubble, but a car that traps 92mph is capable of mid 14'* at best. But, not that I would know, its not like I've had any experience with 14 second cars before. (looks at own sig... )
I hate to burst your bubble, Shawn, but you weren't there, and you haven't taken the different torque and hp curves into account, nor the lack of traction that you didn't witness (and others did), nor the vehicle weight difference, nor the different shift points.

Comparing your high-compression supercharged L36 with different gear ratio, different weight, different PCM, and totally different base motor to mine isn't going to get anyone anywhere in this discussion.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:04 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
I beg to differ. The S1 L67 shifts AT peak torque. Which is why we burn up 2nd gear clutches and blow out differentials at 2nd shifts, and the S2 doesn't.
You mean HP right?
The only hp/tq curves I've seen where you would want to shift at peak tq is a CSC powered engine.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:07 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95naSTA
Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
I beg to differ. The S1 L67 shifts AT peak torque. Which is why we burn up 2nd gear clutches and blow out differentials at 2nd shifts, and the S2 doesn't.
You mean HP right?
The only hp/tq curves I've seen where you would want to shift at peak tq is a CSC powered engine.
Correct. My goof. All other points stand.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
I'll take Shadd, Paul, and Pdad'* opinions at a pretty high level of 'expertness' in this case, since they've driven the car and seen it run. Thanks for your opinion, though.
And their "high level of expertness' lets them have some miracle feel for how fast a car is. Different cars feel completely different. There are LS1 cars that feel like easy 10 second cars to me that are damn near stock and run 13'* just because of their suspension setup and whatnot. Your car wasn't spinning THAT bad. You don't make THAT much torque. I'm not saying it was a perfect run, but with that trap speed that car won't run any better than 14.50'*.


Quote:
I beg to differ. The S1 L67 shifts AT peak torque. Which is why we burn up 2nd gear clutches and blow out differentials at 2nd shifts, and the S2 doesn't.
Series II has A LOT stronger trans. I have cars with 4t60'* in them, they are junk compared to a 4t65. I burn up all the damn gears in my 3.1 car...all it tells me is the trans is weak. Blowing out your small differentials tells me that exact same thing as well. Have you compared the 4t65'* HD diff to yours? Its WAY bigger.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Chadow427 runs mid 13'* in his 2000. I can beat him to the 1/8 (have video from WCBF that clearly shows it) by a length or two. He runs me down from there. Beating him to the 1/8 was done chirping tires in 2nd gear, and losing a bit off the launch with a slight spin.
With equal traction, the SII car is going to have you the whole way. The only reason you beat him was due to traction or launching differences.
Wrong again. I had traction issues off the line, and at the 2nd gear shift, and he barely chirped the tires off the line, and didn't chirp second at all. I had him soundly at the 1/8, and it'* clearly shown in the video. I ran a 14.6 to his 13.7, all the ground he made up was in the back half. Watch the video.
I realize you had "traction issues" off the line. And he didn't. You know what that tells me, HE WASN'T LAUNCHING AS HARD AS HE COULD'VE. With equal launches he would've out launched you. Of course he didn't chirp second....no shift kit and/or better tires. My roomates 2.2 cavalier will burn the tires through 4th gear. Breaking tires loose on the shifts only tells you how hard the tranny is shifting.

Quote:
Quote:
Even my L36 N/A had more power down low than your SI L67 according to the times I've seen. I went 9.35 @ 75 in the 1/8 in my L36 car with 4 mods, and I can garuntee you that even a stock SII L67 car has more low end balls then that did. I really can't see how if a basically stock L36 can take you to the 1/8 that a 13 second L67 car couldn't.... It was driver error or traction, period.
And what is your L36 powered vehicle? Oh, it'* a GP. And the weight difference? Track Prep? I ran 9.405 @ 72.95 in basic street trim other than ELC, and that was with breaking loose off the line and 2nd gear. Yes, my 2nd gear shift comes BEFORE the 1/8 marker, and cost me dearly. But I STILL beat a mid-13 S2 to the 1/8. Think about that.

This isn't idle smack-talk. My runs were all witnessed by over a dozen members here.
Yup, your 14.6 runs were witnessed by over a dozen members. I agree with you. But your traction issues really don't make as much of a difference as you think. I'm sure those members will tell me you were spinning, and I'm sure they'll also tell me you were running 14.6. Spinning almost always gives you a higher trap speed too. Put some slicks on it and watch as you get 14.5'* all day.


Quote:
Quote:
I hate to burst your bubble, but a car that traps 92mph is capable of mid 14'* at best. But, not that I would know, its not like I've had any experience with 14 second cars before. (looks at own sig... )
I hate to burst your bubble, Shawn, but you weren't there, and you haven't taken the different torque and hp curves into account, nor the lack of traction that you didn't witness (and others did), nor the vehicle weight difference, nor the different shift points.
I never said you didn't have lack of traction, I believe you did (I mean your running a damn 2.2" pulley), I also believe that with a trap like that, its not as bad as you think. Remember, I'm the guy running mid 12'* on street tires, I know about traction issues and I know that even I would be hard pressed to drop 6 tenths with traction, even though my tires spin from a 50mph roll and I don't get traction until somewhere around the 330' mark and thats at Norwalk. My tires aren't breaking loose at the 1-2 shift, they're still spinning, they spin right through the 1-2 shift and keep on going. I also understand that your car is heavier than my L36 GP, thats a given. But what I am saying is, if my almost stock L36 in a car that isn't THAT much ligher can take you to the 1/8, then I don't see any reason at all why an L67 car with equal mods as you wouldn't walk all over you up and down. Because it would. Gearing and weight does make a bit of a differnence, but the torque and power difference of an L67 vs. L36 more than makes up for it.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:24 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbtk2
And their "high level of expertness' lets them have some miracle feel for how fast a car is. Different cars feel completely different. There are LS1 cars that feel like easy 10 second cars to me that are damn near stock and run 13'* just because of their suspension setup and whatnot. Your car wasn't spinning THAT bad. You don't make THAT much torque. I'm not saying it was a perfect run, but with that trap speed that car won't run any better than 14.50'*.
You didn't read a thing above, did you? How can you trap at your potential when you're spinning the tires at the 2nd gear shift? Yes, my car DOES make that much torque. It has SCARED the attendee'* of WCBF with the low end grunt it has. I can beat every S2 L67 on the West Coast off the line. Not an empty claim either.

You see, you weren't there, and they were.


Quote:

Series II has A LOT stronger trans. I have cars with 4t60'* in them, they are junk compared to a 4t65. I burn up all the damn gears in my 3.1 car...all it tells me is the trans is weak. Blowing out your small differentials tells me that exact same thing as well. Have you compared the 4t65'* HD diff to yours? Its WAY bigger.
My diff is much stronger now. You're missing a key point I made above. We shift at a much more damaging point in the hp/tq curves than the S2.


Quote:
With equal traction, the SII car is going to have you the whole way. The only reason you beat him was due to traction or launching differences.
? Traction or launching differences? I broke loose. Launch and 2nd. He DIDN'T and we were running SIDE BY SIDE.

Quote:
I realize you had "traction issues" off the line. And he didn't. You know what that tells me, HE WASN'T LAUNCHING AS HARD AS HE COULD'VE.
You're kidding me, right? This is SHADD. He launches his car as hard as he can EVERY CHANCE HE GETS. He'* one of the most accomplished and experienced track hounds on the West Coast, and even STARTED a track in Washington. Again, you weren't there, so you wouldn't know. But I don't make BS claims, particularly when there are so many personal witnesses on this Forum. What I stated is true. Deal with it.

Quote:
Yup, your 14.6 runs were witnessed by over a dozen members. I agree with you. But your traction issues really don't make as much of a difference as you think. I'm sure those members will tell me you were spinning, and I'm sure they'll also tell me you were running 14.6. Spinning almost always gives you a higher trap speed too. Put some slicks on it and watch as you get 14.5'* all day.
Spinning OFF THE LINE almost always produces a higher trap. Spinning at the SECOND GEAR shift is like treading water. You lose time and trap speed.


Quote:
I never said you didn't have lack of traction, I believe you did (I mean your running a damn 2.2" pulley), I also believe that with a trap like that, its not as bad as you think. Remember, I'm the guy running mid 12'* on street tires, I know about traction issues and I know that even I would be hard pressed to drop 6 tenths with traction, even though my tires spin from a 50mph roll and I don't get traction until somewhere around the 330' mark and thats at Norwalk. My tires aren't breaking loose at the 1-2 shift, they're still spinning, they spin right through the 1-2 shift and keep on going. I also understand that your car is heavier than my L36 GP, thats a given. But what I am saying is, if my almost stock L36 in a car that isn't THAT much ligher can take you to the 1/8, then I don't see any reason at all why an L67 car with equal mods as you wouldn't walk all over you up and down. Because it would. Gearing and weight does make a bit of a differnence, but the torque and power difference of an L67 vs. L36 more than makes up for it.
Shawn, call it a 2.0" pulley. Not a 2.2".

You obviously have NFC about how the power of a S1 is delivered. Out West, we didn't either until 2004. This is the 3rd year in a row with BOTH of my cars that I beat all the S2'* off the line with LESS mods than some of them.

My advice to you is to experience it for yourself before you make your theorized claims. In the meantime, maybe you should just sit back and watch the WITNESSES from Woodburn this Summer chime in.

That is, assuming they feel like arguing with your expert-ness. This topic is WAY off topic, thankyouverymuch.
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