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Old 06-06-2014, 02:09 AM   #21
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Just accidentally closed the wrong tab after a long post for you, I'll try to remember what all I typed.

Do you have anybody that can test the fuel pressure for you?
I'd suggest buying one, but a decent one is around 42.00, a lot to pay for something you may only use once.

Next time you go to start it, disconnect the electrical connector to the MAF, and try to start it, it should start, but will run poorly, if it does star running though then your MAF is failing, you could try cleaning it, but it may need to be replaced.

Still that would not explain the problem with your lights, that sounds like a ground problem somewhere, maybe the ground buss like I mentioned.

What you did with disconnecting battery cables, and removing a fuse will not cause it to keep having the same issue.

I'll go back over this when I wake up, and see if I can thinking of anything else.
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Old 06-06-2014, 03:14 AM   #22
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You really need to dump the codes and list them so we can see what the computer is seeing and bitching about. When you're trying to start the car cold, you're in "Open Loop" mode. In Open Loop, the ECM determines how much fuel is needed based on the sensor readings WITHOUT the reading from the heated front (Bank 1 on the GP) O2 sensor'* input. During Closed Loop, the ECM adds HO2S inputs to calculate the short and long term fuel trim (FT) adjustments. Open Loop mode is pretty fail safe unless it'* getting bogus information and that may be what the code will tell us. As for the white smoke, if you were dumping excessive fuel, you should have black smoke rolling out the pipes.

Go back to your "roots" as it were. The advice about trying to check and clean all the cables should be the FIRST priority. Not only should you check the battery cables but also the connections on the starter on the GP and at the fuse box under the hood. Any severe electrical issues can cause craziness with the sensors, PCM, etc and low voltage is more damaging to electronics than you can imagine. Things snowballed after the original electrical issues so that needs to remain the first area to try and correct in my opinion.
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Old 06-06-2014, 04:07 AM   #23
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He'll have to wait till it produces more codes, as he had them cleared.

As for his electrical issue, he said he cleaned the cables today, and found/removed corrosion, but is still having the same issue.
Do you know where his ground buss is located on the GP?

If it was corrosion on his starter, how would it start and then shut off?
Wouldn't it not start at all?
Once it is started I cannot see corrosion on a starter keeping it from continuing to run.
I really think it is more than one issue, but you are right they need to be tackled methodically one at a time.

The only reason I answered other questions is because he had other questions, I was not trying to steer him wrong, or snowball the thread.
If any of you have any other ideas he can try to troubleshoot his electrical issue, feel free to post and help.

Only thing else I can add is that he should not be smelling gas strongly when trying to start it, and the fact he says he does not smell it under the hood makes me think it may be a fuel leak somewhere, possibly a pinhole in the fuel line, I had one not too long ago, it was slowly leaking fuel, but not really enough to stop it from starting though, which is why I suggested testing fuel pressure if possible.
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:47 AM   #24
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William- I looked at one of the past messages that showed the link where the Ground Buss might be down by the floorboard on drivers and passenger side under the carpet. If its right at the side where the door closes that might be the problem for the electrical which I can check when I wake up. My driver side bottom outside front door trim came off last summer and I never got it back on and I do notice that the carpet is coming up from under that plastic piece that holds the carpet on the side where the door closes. Maybe the drivers side got wet with the trim missing and finally rusted or corroded. I was thinking the same thing about the starter connection be corroded or lose but then why would it start each time. I still have to find someone with the meter to check the plug for the MAP sensor. The only reason I really wanted to get a new one even if it wasn't bad is because when I went to pull it off so I could get to the PCV valve, I pulled it from the top and the top cover came off of the MAP. If I would have a gas line leak wouldn't I smell it more while being by the car while working on it earlier? When I get in and turn the key the car starts as long as I fiddle with the gas peddle and as soon as I take the foot off the gas then it stops. I kept trying it even while reeving it up a little for about 4 minutes and that'* when I smelled the gas while sitting in the car with the door opened. I then got out and smelled by the MAP and I didn't smell any gas at all. It seems to have a strong smell only when I'm fiddling with the gas peddle to keep the car running, until I take it off the pedal and it dyes and after a few seconds the gas smell goes away. The battery terminals had a good amount of buildup on it and I got it brushed off and put that grease stuff on it.

Damadtech-Thanks for your info but I'm totally lost about Open Loop and all that first paragraph you wrote. I know it has to mean something but I don't understand what it means. I had the codes cleared a while back ago and after I put on the new MAP and cleaned the terminal and when I sent to start it I noticed the check engine light is now off. I have a friend that said he will bring over his code reader tomorrow which I hope he makes it over. I cant afford to buy one with what they cost right now. I know I started out with this post as having a electrical problem and on Wed is when I went out to go to work and this was the first time that it did not want to start at all even though I could get it started days prior to that. And it was two days earlier when I changed the PCV and broke the MAP taking it out. So after two days later is when I couldn't keep it running on Wed. It was giving me no power at first and then when I pushed down on the neg post cable I heard some things clicking in the motor and when I got in the car and all the dash lights were on and when I tried starting it I had no power when turned the key to start. I had my cousin come by to give me a ride to work but wanted to jump it first to try sense I was already late for work and I hooked up my pos and then her pos and then her neg and when I put my neg jumper cable on the metal frame sparks started and my pos terminal started smoking. And I hurried and took the jumper cables off and discovered I had my red jumper on my neg battery terminal so it was the wrong hook up on my battery. So I hooked them up the correct way and her car started and myne would have the lights and whistles on but still no power when I turned it on.So after taking the neg terminal off of my battery Thurs and let it sit and I believe that is when it would start but not stay running . Then its when I went to Advanced auto and he told me about take the ECM fuse out and take off the neg battery and reseat the MAP sensor which I think he meant the thing it sits in with the two latches on both sides that the map snaps into. I also took the pcv out and took the oring off the pcv and put the oring down in the hole to seat it where it looked where it belonged and then put the pcv thru the oring and pushed it down till the oring was positioned right under the lip on the pcv and then put the orange oring in and the set the spring map holder down and turned it to lock it in position and plugged it in and hoped it would of started and stayed running but no go. When I changed the pcv on Monday I also changed the oil and used that Lucus for the oil for the first time. I don't think that would make this all happen. Also that copper colored gasket sealer I put in the radiator a week or so ago don't think that would be doing anything to cause this problem. BTW, when I was tightening the neg post bolt the wrench touched the positive battery terminal that was already screwed in and it scared the crap our of me and it made a burned mark on the neg bolt. But I went to start the car after I got the bolts back in and nothing seemed different other then what its doing now.I have to get some sleep so I will check back on in the morning. Would it pay to take the spark plugs out to see if they need changed or just worry about finding the Ground Bus first to check the condition of it?
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:55 AM   #25
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One more thing is that there are two hard vacuum lines that one goes from the fuel regulator and the other goes from the end of the fuel rail it looks like and they both go into a rubber like boot. Well last month the rubber boot started cracking on the side of it so I went to the junk yard to find another boot and I got the line that went from the fuel regulator to the rubber boot. So I hooked it up and last sunday I noticed the rubber boot is cracking down the side of it. Would the gas smell be coming out of that area sense it has a crack running down the side of the rubber boot..
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Old 06-06-2014, 08:49 AM   #26
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those things go all the time, so you cant get one from the junk yard and expect it to be good. and you need it to be because that gives the fpr the proper vacuum signal. when mine went i got a factory one, it was like 30 bucks for the whole lines and boots, one pn all they sell. you can make it out of random tees and fittings from the parts store as long as you use NEW stuff, junk yard stuff might as well not use anything. as far as the smell though you shouldnt smell gas take the one off the fpr and smell of you smell gas there your fpr is bad.

as far as the jumping the terminals backward and arcing across, that builds carbon and stuff that is not conductive and needs to be cleaned to bare metal and reseated. sometimes you heat up fuses and cause intermittent issues with those or a dead cell depends how long you shorted it for and how good the battery was to begin with
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Old 06-06-2014, 02:21 PM   #27
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That would be amazing if that is what'* making it not staying running. I actually went to the same guy at Advanced Auto before going to the junk yard and he made one with using plastic tee'* and tubing but after I left and checked it I noticed the one rubber tube he had the line from the fuel reg was big for that line so that'* why I went to the junk yard and was able to pick one up for two bucks. I only got the line from the fuel regulator and the rubber boot cause I didn't know how the other line came off where it looks like its at the end of the fuel rail. That was about 4 weeks ago I got that at the junkyard and as of last week I noticed the right side of the rubber boot had a crack going down the side of it and there are little knobbies on the end of the vacuum lines that go into the boot that I didn't know if the little knobbies are suppose to just set outside of the boot or if they need pushed into the boot, so when I push them in it makes the boot wider which may of made it crack. I don't know tho. I read about taking the line off the fuel regulator and did it a couple weeks ago and let it run for at least ten minutes and no fuel came out. But I have to run to the doc appoint and then go to the dealership and get the new lines and rubber boot, and I might pick up a new fuel regulator also. This will be amazing if this is what is causing it. BTW, my cousin told me on Monday when I was there changing my oil to put a tube clamp at the top of the boot where the boot goes over that little knobby sense it had the crack which I did, but after doing it I thought it still wasn't helping the air from being pulled in from where the crack was..
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:37 PM   #28
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I took the hose off the fuel regulator and the other hose and the boot they both connect into and bought it to the dealership. They ordered it and will be in the morning to pick it up. Its called a Vacuum Harness and the part #24506671. After taking the tube off the fuel regulator I didn't smell any gas. I blew thru the hose and at first I didn't feel anything at the other end and then blew harder and then I felt the air coming from the other end. So sense I cant get the new one till morning I'm gona put the hoses back on and thinking on wrapping electric tape around the rubber boot that the two vacuum lines go into to see if maybe it will close that crack to see if anything happens with it staying running. I will also try disconnecting the electrical connector to the MAF and try to start it. If its still doing the same thing I will have to wait till I get the vacuum line harness thing from the dealership in the morning to put on and see. My cousin said he might have time to come over tomorrow with the code reader he has, but that'* not a for sure thing yet. He has a more complex one where he has a key chain of metal chips that each one is for a different car I think and he puts that into the reader he has and it does all kind of stuff from what I remember. He also has the fuel gauge that he used on my car a couple years ago before changing my gas filter.
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:52 PM   #29
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In regards to the ground buss I mentioned, you may not have one, if you do it may not be in the same area, I have only heard of the ground buss in the older Bonnies, I just mentioned it in case there is one that somebody else knows about.
Before I try to help with anything else we need to find out if there are any other grounds that may be corroded, if there are not I'd have the battery health tested, because by now there is a chance it has lost too much juice, if it has then troubleshooting anything else properly will be impossible.

I'd hold off on testing the MAP sensor until we get battery health, and possible ground corrosion issues taken care of.

As for your gas leak question, yes you are right, you would smell it upon just turning the key on and letting the pump prime, most likely the smell is just from flooding issues while cranking it.
When you are trying to start it pumping the pedal a lot like that is going to cause it to flood if it is not starting, and that will keep it from starting until the excess of gas clears from the cylinders, so try to keep from doing that when you start it.
Once you are done checking battery health, and cleaning the metal on the terminals like Justin suggested, then we'll move on to try to find out what is going on with the fuel delivery, because it sounds like there is an issue with either the fuel pressure, or maybe the MAF if the fuel pressure is at spec, and injectors are pulsing.


I will try to help with the soft rubber boots though, and say that I'd not replace the FPR as you said you did not smell fuel when you removed the EVAP lines from it, and no gas leaked from it.

With your EVAP line, the little knobby part you mention does not need to go inside the soft EVAP connector, that is where the line stops flush with the soft EVAP connector.
As mentioned those all crack after time, pretty much every soft rubber EVAP line will crack, or dry-rot.
Was the hard plastic lines going to the soft rubber EVAP connector damaged?
If not there is no need to replace them, only the cracked soft rubber EVAP connector.
Some of those can be found where the HELP section is in Advance Auto, but you may not find the one that goes to the throttle body from the purge valve and the fuel pressure regulator, in my case I had to order it from a dealer, but it was only a couple of dollars.
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:06 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Rob46360 View Post
I took the hose off the fuel regulator and the other hose and the boot they both connect into and bought it to the dealership. They ordered it and will be in the morning to pick it up. Its called a Vacuum Harness and the part #24506671. After taking the tube off the fuel regulator I didn't smell any gas. I blew thru the hose and at first I didn't feel anything at the other end and then blew harder and then I felt the air coming from the other end. So sense I cant get the new one till morning I'm gona put the hoses back on and thinking on wrapping electric tape around the rubber boot that the two vacuum lines go into to see if maybe it will close that crack to see if anything happens with it staying running. I will also try disconnecting the electrical connector to the MAF and try to start it. If its still doing the same thing I will have to wait till I get the vacuum line harness thing from the dealership in the morning to put on and see. My cousin said he might have time to come over tomorrow with the code reader he has, but that'* not a for sure thing yet. He has a more complex one where he has a key chain of metal chips that each one is for a different car I think and he puts that into the reader he has and it does all kind of stuff from what I remember. He also has the fuel gauge that he used on my car a couple years ago before changing my gas filter.
Sucks you had to order that whole line, the soft EVAP connectors should be replaceable for a couple of dollars without having to replace the hard plastic lines, go figures the dealer sells the whole thing as one unit for over 20.00, what a rip off, I was able to get my soft EVAP connectors for a fraction of that price.

Blowing through the FPR is not a way to accurately diagnose an issues with it, not being able to blow through one way, but being able to the other sounds like it is working as intended, I'd not waste your money by replacing it.

As I said in the previous post, I'd not try starting it anymore until you verify the battery has around 12.6v while the car is not running, if it is under that voltage it will need to be charged.

I am not sure what you are referring to as metal chips with your
cousins scanner, so I cannot comment on that, any scanner that reads OBD2 should work as we are just trying to get any basic trouble codes.

If he brings the fuel pressure tester have him test your fuel pressure after you turn the key to on, but do not attempt to start it, after he tests the pressure give it a good bit of time, overnight if possible, and test it again without turning the key on, that way we can see how much pressure is leaking down.
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