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Performance, Brainstorming & Tuning Talk about modifications, or anything else associated with performance enhancements. Have a new idea for performance/reliability? Post it here. No idea is stupid! (please use Detailing and Appearance for cosmetic ideas)

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Old 03-28-2007, 11:45 AM   #51
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Wheel Speed Sensor
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Old 03-29-2007, 01:16 AM   #52
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I'm not worried, as long as the PCM is reacting to the knock sensors by retarding the timing, that'* protection enough.

I still have the 3.4" on.

I think I will try the 2.9" just for the heck of it...............squeeeeeal like a quinea pig.....wheeeeeeeee





Don't worry, I'll back off a little when I start to hear the pistons pop.
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:37 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000SilverBullet
So is there a way to tune it without spending $500 on a programmer

Can INTENSE do it and mail me the reprogrammed PCM
I'm sure intense could make you a new file for your car that would be better, however the best way to do it would be to actually have the car and tune it. Without having the car there and being able to monitor everything its hard to get a tune for it.

I would look for a used powertuner and go that route. I got mine with the wideband input ($100 option) for $360 shipped used. I'm sure if you looked around you could find a regular one for $300ish. I'm not sure what you use to scan now but as long as its not a scan gauge you can pretty much sell it and pay for part of the tuner.

A tune is the biggest mod you can do to your car. There is a local guy here that has mods that realistically should make a typical GTP go 14.0'* or maybe high 13'*. Open K&N, 1.95 rockers, 104 plugs, 180 tstat, pem'*, and a halfassed home ported blower. On a 3.2 pulley w/~21 degrees timing his car went 13.0 @ 105mph on race gas. I spent a good amount of time on his tune and thats the major difference. His car woke up a rediculous amount with a tune. FWIW he had 11 degrees of KR on a 3.4 pulley when we started and thats on stock timing. When we were done he was running the 3.4 on 21 degrees with no problems.
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Old 03-29-2007, 09:58 AM   #54
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It is unrealistic in my opinion to pick up a full second (100hp) on a lightly modded car from just PCM tuning. It is certainly abnormal for one to do so. Maybe his 60' were better on the later runs as well?

I would think that most of that gain would be from extra timing allowed by the race gas with some of it coming from the tuning tweaks. Our cars love timing sometimes more than boost. We dyno 2 or 3 cars a week, roughly 100+ cars a year, sometimes we see a little gain (10hp or so) sometimes we see a big gain (20-30). A lot of that depends on the base tune however I have never seen 70-100 hp gain from just tuning.

Tuning is a very important part of making sure you get the most out of your mods and unleashing the full power potential. I agree that a tuner should be a priority if you're serious about making power and getting faster.

I disagree that the powertuner is the tuner to get however. I've seen and used both Powertuner and HP Tuners, and HP Tuners is by far the easiest to use for scanning and making changes. It has the largest coverage of cars and is supported by the major vendors even though we do not sell it and have not vested interest in it. ZZP uses it, we use it, W-body store uses it, etc..

As always I recommend doing some research and talking to people who have used both before making your final decision I'm just stating my opinions
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:30 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
It is unrealistic in my opinion to pick up a full second (100hp) on a lightly modded car from just PCM tuning. It is certainly abnormal for one to do so. Maybe his 60' were better on the later runs as well?
He never ran his car before the tune but with his mods GTP'* don't usually run close to that or trap close to that either. Before the rockers and the tune I think he went 14.1 @ 98 IIRC but I'm not sure.

Quote:
I would think that most of that gain would be from extra timing allowed by the race gas with some of it coming from the tuning tweaks. Our cars love timing sometimes more than boost. We dyno 2 or 3 cars a week, roughly 100+ cars a year, sometimes we see a little gain (10hp or so) sometimes we see a big gain (20-30). A lot of that depends on the base tune however I have never seen 70-100 hp gain from just tuning.
Yes I agree the race gas gave him a good gain and allowed him to drop from the 3.4 to the 3.2 pulley, however on pump gas with street tires and the 3.4 pulley his car still went 13.4 @ 103.

Quote:
Tuning is a very important part of making sure you get the most out of your mods and unleashing the full power potential. I agree that a tuner should be a priority if you're serious about making power and getting faster.

I disagree that the powertuner is the tuner to get however. I've seen and used both Powertuner and HP Tuners, and HP Tuners is by far the easiest to use for scanning and making changes. It has the largest coverage of cars and is supported by the major vendors even though we do not sell it and have not vested interest in it. ZZP uses it, we use it, W-body store uses it, etc..

As always I recommend doing some research and talking to people who have used both before making your final decision I'm just stating my opinions
I agree the HP tuners is the better way to go, but considering how much more it costs, I think Paul can do everything he wants to do with the powertuner. You can do more than enough for basically all setups that aren't just an all out racecar with a powertuner. The HP tuners does give you a few more things but at $599 and then like $150 per car its a little rediculous IMO.

FWIW ZZP uses both the HP tuners and Powertuner.

If money was not an object and you had to chose then I would definately go with the HP tuners but to me it just was not worth it. But I make $7.25/hr so I don't have a lot of cash floating around.
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbtk2
Yes I agree the race gas gave him a good gain and allowed him to drop from the 3.4 to the 3.2 pulley, however on pump gas with street tires and the 3.4 pulley his car still went 13.4 @ 103.
[email protected] with a 3.4 and pump gas to [email protected] with a 3.2 and race gas is completely realistic in my opinion. I thought you were saying he went from 14.0 to 13.0 with basically tuning and a .2 pulley change which is what I felt was unrealistic.

Either way thats a good running car for those mods.
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Old 03-30-2007, 12:44 AM   #57
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These engines can't be that different that a basic re-program to take into effect of the Gen V to adjust the fuel rate increase.............come on, I can't believe INTENSE can do that.
I would rather spend the money on 42 lb injectors and the re-burn than buy another piece of electronics.

Do the 42 # injectors adapt to the stock fuel rail or is another wad of cash necessary for a new one

Dang it........I'm just going to pop on the 3.1 pulley again and add some snake oil to the fuel.

Remember, before the Gen V it was running the 1/4 consistently at 13.5 sec at 103 mph.......in a much heavier car than a GP.

This Bonne has NUTS


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Old 03-30-2007, 08:22 AM   #58
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.

It was a nice motor while it lasted, hopefully the guys putting in the new one don't scratch the paint.

42lb injectors don't require a different fuel rail. I simply don't understand how you can justify all kinds of money for meth, Gen V, monkey'*, emblems and not have the desire to tune your car properly.
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Old 03-30-2007, 12:48 PM   #59
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42lb injectors aren't a fix. They need to be tuned as well. What'* wrong here are your fueling MAPS. The fuel curves in the PCM.
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:06 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
42lb injectors aren't a fix. They need to be tuned as well. What'* wrong here are your fueling MAPS. The fuel curves in the PCM.
Hmm...not necessarily.

A gen V blower adds more air which in turn requires more fuel. The MAF sensor picks up the greater amount of air moving in and the 02 sensor (front) teaches the computer fuel trims + or - based on its narrow band reading. These two sensors for the most part control where in the fuel map you are and can even learn new fueling based on corrections (your short and long term fuel trims).

This is the reason why GM can sell cars anywhere in the states (or world) regardless of elevation, humidity, climate etc... and not have to reprogram each car. Adding boost to the car will not require new fuel maps although some increased fueling may help cool the cylinders to help against detonation and help keep it safer.

If you are moving too much air for the fuel system to keep up (injector size, fuel pressure, fuel volume etc..) then that should be addressed.

I think in this case more data is needed, what are the LTFT vs. MAF at various RPMs what are the IPW vs MAP at various RPMS. What is fuel pressure at idle, cruise and WOT.

EDIT* Obviously the PCM needs to know the proper size of the injector but the actual fuel curve and maps won't need to be changed.
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