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Old 03-28-2006, 09:44 PM   #1
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Default Phenolic intake spacers? might as well... sources?

i have been thinking of using aluminum for the intake spacers (between LIM and the head) i need for the SI/SII (EV6/Ecotec) hybrid project, because of the taller SI deck height and the SII heads being farther apart than the SII LIM.
WELL... this weekend while i was cutting 1/2 inch plywood for the mockup spacers...why not use phenolic material here to reduce intake temps?, i doubt the plywood would seal well without getting rid of the oring style gaskets and going to a thicker paper/felt type gasket etc.

but if there was ever a time and place to go with a phenolic material to reduce LIM temps, this is it...i need to make spacers they might as well make the engine a wee bit more efficient, besides making the port length longer.

where are some good places to get 18 inch x 4 inch sheets of phenolic material in ~9/16ths to 1/2 inch thickness'*??? i have searched the web (google etc) and some companies want 145$ for a 24x48 sheet of the stuff that is rated to 280* and 375$ for 350* plus stuff composite materials!!!

i dont think that this aplication needs a temp rating over 280* but the phenolic material must have a low moisture absorbtion factor (mostly glass fiber based phenolics...and special composits fit these needs but $$$$$$$) that the celulose/cotton based phenolic materials lack

should i just stick with my idea of aluminum spacers and just using 2 SII intake gasket sets? or thicker alum spacer and swapping to hand made paper gaskets? or should i try to find some phenoilic material and use OE or handmade gaskets?

i have the L36 (NA) SII lower intake but it def would suxor to cut it down the middle and widden it....which at that point would def require a custom sheet alum upper...prob best to stick with making spacers...especially for a possible tall deck "Kit"

I should have more pics once i am done with these mockup spacers and old intake gaskets...

thanks and i would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Regards, James
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Old 03-28-2006, 09:46 PM   #2
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Buying a piece of raw material will be quite expensive. I'd suggest sourcing it at a large-volume local machine shop. Those guys buy at wholesale prices in bulk.
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Old 03-28-2006, 09:51 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Buying a piece of raw material will be quite expensive. I'd suggest sourcing it at a large-volume local machine shop. Those guys buy at wholesale prices in bulk.
the stuff i'm looking for is more commonly used in power switches etc as it is machinable and electrically as well as thermally insulating...we dont have any machine shops around here that work with this type of material...at least not that i could find in my machine shop and electrical suply listings in the yellow pages...
right now i'm just checking on this, as i can get the 1/2 inch aluminum cheap and local, but the insulatting properties of a phenolic compound would be nice...

James
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Old 04-01-2006, 08:09 PM   #4
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i have considered "Raising" the port angle to give the air a more direct shot at the back of the valve in the final build

I sent an email, in regards to this project to Outlawengineering.com
WoW! talk about fast response!

Quote:
James,

You guys are nuts! I mean that in the best of ways. The twin engine Cutlass is too much! Talk about a double-edged sword!

Send a gasket over here and we'll see what we can do. We use a standard 1/4" thick composite, but we can certainly stack them to whatever thickness you may need. Just place another gasket between the spacers for now. I think we can fit you in for ~$100.

The composite will be fine, we run other spacers that have coolant passing through. I would suggest bypassing the coolant through the LIM if you can. With coolant going through the manifold, it will still get to ~180 degrees F.

Best regards,
Sean Morgan
Outlaw Engineering
now this represents and interesting idea...dep on how thick exactly the spacers have to be, you would have to use some paper gaskets between the seperate 1/4inch plates (like bolt a stack together with a couple 4-40 screws and then put it on the engine...or maybe since you'd have to get two sets of LIM gaskets, just stack 4 of em... :P lol i almost might be better off with using 3 oem replacment gaskets and two 1/4 inch aluminum pieces...use the gaskets as the phenolic insulators...of course this provides packaging/instalation problems and possibility of more leaks

I hope i can find someone to give me an estimate on an actual 1/2 inch phenolic material to have the spacers made from.

what are some of your opinions?

just go with some ~ 1/2 inch thick aluminum spacers and the two LIM gaskets "acting" as phenolic insulators or should i see about some 1/2 phenolic material...what do you think would be the best, would the aluminum be that much less efficient than the phenolic that it would benifit to any large degree? maybe if i did remove the coolant passages from the intake (I have looked at the room available for running dedicated reverse cooling lines (AN from the front cover to the head coolant port and then into the blockseperate AN lines and use a thin blockoff plate at the W/P or and external mounted W/P) this would let the phenolics do their job better and i bet you could get U/LIM temps nearly ambient

The other option is to go farther than just making my sheet alum UIM for the L36 LIM, and make the whole damn mess from sheet aluminum, i have acess to a Tig and have a bridgport, so i could do it...but i'd like to do it using as many factory parts as possible to keep costs down. (as well as to keep from spending 30+ hrs on an intake)

thoughts?, comments?

Regards, James
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Old 04-11-2006, 10:53 AM   #5
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Sorry I do not have any pricing for you or any thing but if you do go with aluminum you could use ceramic coating for headers to insulate it and it you do have it made from 2 layers you would have a barrier on both maiting surfaces working similar to 3pain e-glass.
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