Swapping series II heads onto EV6/LN3/SI tall deck shortblok - Page 6 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 03-13-2006, 02:47 AM   #51
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i honestly cant belive no one has done this before...there is no way that some GM tech/engineer hasent figured out that you could put the SII heads on the tall deck/long rod block with a custom cam and intake spacers...oh and lengthening the exhaust manifold crosover pipe...

ask and ye shale recieve...i have 58 new pics....

Just a tease....fer now ...these are the hot ones



10 pic flash strip of SI tall deck/long rod block/pushrods with SII DE larger valve/symetrical port heads
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:42 PM   #52
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Ok lets start with the obvious stuff...
here are two pics of the different deck heights SI (1 inch taller) vs SII measured from the coolant port for the nearly identical timing chain covers....
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SII
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In these pics you will see a 93 EV6 SI short block next to a SII shortblock
in this pic you will notice the same skirt mount holes for the accesory brackets and other bolt locations and then you will see the other differences in bolt hole locations and the extra knock sensor boss.
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SI block face:
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SII block face
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now to the headgaskets Here are some pics...try to guess which is which...lol
the SII is identical except for the slightly different valve reliefs in the combustion chamber fire-ring in the SII HG as well as it has the large area with triangles cutout for the pushrods to pass through.
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Here you wil see the SII headgasket on the SI block
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Here you see the lifter offset from the SII lifter bore locations
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And here is the SI gasket on the SI block
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so far it looks like the SII gasket will have to be used as the SI gasket, though nearly identical, might shroud the valves and hinder flow.

Here the 2000 SII head is bolted onto the SI EV6 block...those symetrical ports look right at home dont they...
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Here is a 3/4 view:
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and a rocker arm buisness end view
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To further show the slight differences in lifter bore locations between the SI and SII blocks here is a SII lifter carrier above a SI carrier notice the center two are in perfect alignment
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And here you see the two end lifter locations notice on the SII where the lifter bores were moved inward more on the inner lifter than the outer (end) lifter.
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And here are the SI pushrods installed center two are at 0 degree'* and the outboard 4 pushrods are at slight inward angles, the ones on the ends are at ~ 1.5-2 degree'* and the ones inboard of the ends are at ~3.5 degree'* and just slightly graze the edges of the intake port casting. This neccesitates grinding just a hair over 1mm from the outter port wall.
Lifter guide left off for clarity:
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In this pic my buddy Donald is pointing to the two outter pushrods which are at the ~1.5-2 degree angle
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here he is pointing to the pushrods that are at ~ 3.5-4 degree'* and that hit the outer port casting, this was fixed by removing just a bit over 1mm of metal about 1 cm tall from the outer port wall...
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now the oilpans are even more interesting as the SI sump height is a little deeper and has a larger front sump section...both have identical bolt hole locations and pan rail widths...the major difference is the SI pan has an integral windage tray and the SII pan has the windage tray integral to the pan gasket carrier... (SI pan is on the right and bottom of the pics)
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and the rods are next the SI rod being a longer rod by ~5/8ths of an inch (I have seen specs saying its .64 inches shorter) but i have to pull the pistons off the rods for more comparison. the SI rod has a thicker main beam and also has more material around the big end capscrew locations, besides being equipped with a larger dia piston wrist pin, this could be bushed to work for a floating pin application and probably use the SII wrist pin diameter. Also note where the SI piston also has a tall compression height that if the SII piston were put into a SI block you would be able to get the rod even longer by ~1/4 inch of an inch for an even better rod/stroke ratio

so if you used the SII piston (or an aftermarket) with the SI rod in a SI shortblock you could throw in a ~3.6 inch stroker crank and have all factory components without custom length rods etc.

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the SI piston on the right has a deeper dish with a top ring located lower and a taller oil scrapper ring, than the L36 piston on the left
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and a through the bore view of the head/valves
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thats enough fer now...more to come...

Regards, James
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Old 03-15-2006, 02:19 PM   #53
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Quote:
i honestly cant belive no one has done this before...there is no way that some GM tech/engineer hasent figured out that you could put the SII heads on the tall deck/long rod block with a custom cam and intake spacers...oh and lengthening the exhaust manifold crosover pipe...
The reason why it has not been tried by others is the fact that people only enjoy bolt-on stuff. There are many challenges in doing the swap, especially the camshaft.
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Old 03-16-2006, 09:43 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssei1995
The reason why it has not been tried by others is the fact that people only enjoy bolt-on stuff. There are many challenges in doing the swap, especially the camshaft.
then this is right up their alley...all bolt on stuff...

so far the longblock looks like all it needs:
is the ~13mm (1/2 inch) phenolic or alum intake port spacers (and the end oil seals will need spacers) phenolic would def be better

a custom grind camshaft SI bearing journal diameter and SI lifter bore spacing but with the SII lobe phasing...and since most with a tall deck stroker/turbo high performance engine would want a custom cam to get the most out of the engine this is a very minor cost (~250-350 USD dep on lobe pattern)

4 pushrods approx ~.010-.020 longer than stock SI pushrods for the higher angle pushrods (for proper lifter preload), which clear the head casting just fine after just a hair over 1mm was ground away from the outer edge of the port wall (see in pics above)



you will have to use wither the SI or SII balance shaft gear/Timing chain, Cam and crank gears on the SI crank/block, the cam retainer plates are identical thickness (3 bolts in SI only 2 in SII) and the cam snouts are the same, just different journnal diameters.
One thing to make clear, if if your deleting the balance shaft, or not, you have to use the SII cam gear with the SII balance shaft drive gear as the cam gear and balance shaft gear from either set are the same thickness you cannot mix the SI cam gear with the SII balance shaft drive gear or vis-a-ersa as they with be thicker/thinner than the required thickness.

also if your using the better smaller pitch SII Tchain/balance shaft gear, cam gear, crank gear you will have to install the SII oil pump into the SI cover (the drive arangment between the oil pump in the cover and the Tchain crank gears are different from SI to the SII.

accesory brackets look like you will be able to use all of the SI brackets with the SII heads with some minor customizing (and making a few parts "factory optional" )

James
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Old 03-16-2006, 10:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
a custom grind camshaft SI bearing journal diameter and SI lifter bore spacing but with the SII lobe phasing...and since most with a tall deck stroker/turbo high performance engine would want a custom cam to get the most out of the engine this is a very minor cost (~250-350 USD dep on lobe pattern)
Have you really priced a custom grind for $250-$350 from a real cam grinder? You cannot take an OEM cam and regrind it to do the required changes. The last time I had a custom 4-7 firing order, to run with roller cam bearings camshaft made for an AMC engine, the customer paid $1,200.00 and this was for a hydraulic racing cam, not even a solid or hydraulic roller.
Believe me, I applaud your efforts and ideas and in no way I am trying to demean anything you are doing. Nevertheless, we have to wait for the engine to be done and operational; right now is what I call a drawing board engine.
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Old 04-03-2006, 01:06 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssei1995
Quote:
a custom grind camshaft SI bearing journal diameter and SI lifter bore spacing but with the SII lobe phasing...and since most with a tall deck stroker/turbo high performance engine would want a custom cam to get the most out of the engine this is a very minor cost (~250-350 USD dep on lobe pattern)
Have you really priced a custom grind for $250-$350 from a real cam grinder? You cannot take an OEM cam and regrind it to do the required changes. The last time I had a custom 4-7 firing order, to run with roller cam bearings camshaft made for an AMC engine, the customer paid $1,200.00 and this was for a hydraulic racing cam, not even a solid or hydraulic roller.
Believe me, I applaud your efforts and ideas and in no way I am trying to demean anything you are doing. Nevertheless, we have to wait for the engine to be done and operational; right now is what I call a drawing board engine.
yes, Comp cams stated that if i welded the SII billet camshaft lobes to move them latterally they would regrind the lobes with the factory profile and the SI bearing journal diameter for 250$ with me doing most of the rough grinding on my friends lathe. the gentlman i talked to said that since it is a billet steel camshaft (the SII factory cam i would be using as my base) i could wled all the lobes oversize and they could grind almost any profile i would desire with the bearing journals being resized/hardening for 350$ with me doing the welding, and grinding to move the SII lobes (8 of em) latterally the required distance, i would also have to send them the SI camshaft so they can take measurments from it as to the lifter bore centerlines to double check my work (moving the lobes laterally) their tech dept is very helpfull...also AMC grinds tend to be expensive anywhere ya go my buddy paid 400 for a cam kit for the 401 i built for his jeepster

But to appease you (and any others curiouse about it) i have been looking into what Intense can do for a whole new blank billet camshaft with a nice turbocharger friendly profile, Mr Intense is still waiting to hear back from CamMotion last i heard from him. I will let you know this info when i get it.

On a side note:

OK i admit it I goofed...when measuring the intake manifold spacer thickness...i set the intake on the block...the real thickness (surface to surface) is ~ 1 5/32'* inches!!! the end oil seals would have to be 1 inch (redid my math and this is fer sure since the head'* are now 1 inch higher due to the tall deck block)

sooo i have to make some reaallly thick intake spacers or i just go ahead and section the L36 LIM into two port flanges, run my own coolant hose path'* and weld a plate down the center for the new "Floor" of the intake plenum, now this may be the best way to go about this, though i would loose the benifite of over 1 inch phenolic spacers, going over 1/2 inch thickness with that stuff gets expensive reallly quick, and i can get 1/4 inch alumin sheet and TIG it fer less than that fer sure, my labor comes cheap to me

the other thing i noted other than the UIM being really tall with the spacer method is thet the bolt holes in the LIM would have to be slotted because of the bolt angle to the head face. this problem goes away if i just fabricate a wider LIM using as much of the factory unit as i can (but believe me i would run external coolant lines, that would seriously reduce LIM temps in and of itself)

I have a crapload of pics of my mockups with SI brackets and SII brackets...guess what other than some tomfoolery with coolant routing (aka the SII alternator bracket vs the SI) almost all the brackets interchange...and the 00 impalla L36 alternator/tensioner bracket bolted onto teh head shows that the tensioner pulley lines up perfectly with the SI T chain cover Water pump pulley...so belt routing may not be as bad as i think.

I would appreciate pics of any of your cars that are similar to these makes/models 00 impalla L36, 00 L67 (W and H bodies) and 93 regal'* 3800 SI, so that i may see what brackets would be the best, as far as the compressor, alternator, P/* mounting brackets as well as the belt routings, i will be looking in Mitchell OnDemand when i get to work but usable pics would be appreciated.

Wait till ya'll see the pics (soon!)

Regards, James
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Old 04-03-2006, 01:29 AM   #57
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So.....when can I expect to do this to a 95 L67????????? LOL


I'm bored and need something to do lol.
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:46 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakevilleSSEi
So.....when can I expect to do this to a 95 L67????????? LOL
I'm bored and need something to do lol.
well since it looks like the easiest thing to do is cut and widen the intake the SII L67 LIM would then have a mounting pad big enough for a 144 or 6-71 roots blower

4 barrel demon carb anyone? talk about a blower sticking out of the hood...

i wonder what the manifold flange for a 144 looks like...

you can build your own SI/SII tall deck hybrid, anytime ya want to...just give me a holler

James
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Old 04-17-2006, 01:01 AM   #59
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Right now i am trying to locate a factory rod (from another application) to allow the use of SII short compression height pistons with a rod longer than the factory SI/EV6 i havent gotten an exact measurement but the SI rod is dam near 5.9 inches c to c and using the SI piston means i need to find a factory rod ~ 6.1-6.15 in length

SII guys only wish they could fit a rod that long in a short deck...

on this same note a SI guy could get a crank with a larger stroke while using the factory SI rod with a factory or forged aftermarket SII piston, cheap stroker...

well onto the pics...
this is the SI/SII Hybrid (by now ya'll know i'm talking about the EV6/Ecotec) the end gaps under the intake is 1 inch, the sides are approx 1 5/32 inches
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awww yeah SII alternator bracket, SI front lower mount, with SI cover and pump, pulley'* all line up all good there.
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a high res view of the cylinder bore/head alignment, anyone ever scribe the heads with the bore, my one head needs a .010 ofset pin to move it up, but i want to check more.
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nice view of the pushrods...
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here'* the two coolant ports...these will play into my work on a custom fabb'd intake manifold, i will section out the middle and weld in aluminum to widen it as well as i am looking into external plumbing for the cooling system...i am wanting to see how dificult it would be to make it a reverse flow system, sending the cool coolant straight to the heads and then into the block to prevent hot spots.
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Yup it'* def an EV6 with symetrical port heads...
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crankcase pics:
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and this is the main reason i have figured it easier and better to widen the LIM than spacers and the problem shown in these pics, bolt angles, you could slot the LIM but that thick of spacers is pretty excessive as are the other problems, this is why i have settled on widening the manifold.

Here i played with flipping the manifold backwards to see if it would be better for external plumbing access to the needed coolant ports in the heads with some work to the T chain cover i could make a bypass for coolant leaving the water pump to the head passages and from there into the block and exiting the front to a remote thermostat/restricter plate.

SII FWD front engine mount adaptor bolted on
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SI FWD front engine mount bracket and AC comp bracket. either could be used in the final engine, the questions arise for RWD differences, but i'll leave that to ya'll.
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I have yet to finish sorting this all out but it looks like the SII alternator bracket can be used with some work or the SI stuff can be retained, i do not have a clue (yet!) what this means as for using the dual belt drive setup on a SII L67 on the SI/SII Hybrid.
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a few more pics:
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The SII EGR could be used in this setup, but i donít have smog test'*... what? like the guy will ever even think to check for a rear engine...:dancingna
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one of the issues of a spacer for the intake...alternator bracket clearance...
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the SII tensioner lines up perfectly with the SI pump with SI pulley
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for the FWD crowd...now that the SII heads are 1 inch higher there is now an issue with the rear manifold, for turbo vehicles with headers...i dont see an issue but with the firewall on a W body this would probably require rewelding of the rear manifold to lower the angle.
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and now to the rods and pistons, i have finally pressed the SI apart and hope to have pics here in the near future (uh yeah the SI rod is a good bit meatier in many ways..but as i said i am looking for longer rods from a different engine/application so that the aftermarket forged SII pistons can be used with an even longer rod at stock stroke is 1.80 rod/stroke angle vs 1.73 for a stock rod SI, which is still way better than a factory SII
but before i go nuts with numbers i have been checking an it would seem that there are different compression height SI pistons...which means several different incarnations of SI (EV6/L27/LN3/LG3) connecting rod length
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I'll let your imagination wander...i bet ya can figure which is which..
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and the turbo'* i'd love to have on the 442...now if i can only steal them off my pop'* 07 Peterbilt 13.5L Cat compound turbocharged diesel
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