Swapping series II heads onto EV6/LN3/SI tall deck shortblok - Page 2 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 04-17-2005, 04:20 AM   #11
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the SII head gaskets would have to go with the SII heads on the SI block from the looks of em, I can compare the gaskets and see which works best with the block/heads

OK so there is no problem swapping the heads/intake from a SII onto a SI LN3 block, there will be spacers required for the intake (LN3 tall deck block). the 12 injector setup would be possible, the exhaust manifolds are no problem since Xover has to be modded for the turbo
the main hurdle is what are the differences between the SI cam and the SII cam on the cam journal sizes, and how it bolts to the cam gear
both are hyd roller cams and the blocks have the exact same lifter bore spacing

just need to find out fer sure on the SII cam if I can mod it to fit into the SI block
hell the cams could be identical but with a different bolt/pin setup for the cam gear, in which cas a LN3 T cain set and a SII chain set will fix that problem lol
95naSTA, could you take pics of the SII cam and the Cam gear mounting/crank gear

and dep on what i find between the SI and SII cams I might just take ya up on the cam offer.... but I will experiment with a factory cam if I have to lathe it etc

let see those pics of the Cam and the snout and the cam/crank gears

I will be taking my D camera when I go to the Jyard! I shall see once and fer all what can be possible....or I at least get a tan and lots of pics, and nuthing to show fer it....cept bloody knuckles
James
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Old 04-17-2005, 11:45 AM   #12
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Turbocharged400sbc,

If you are able to mate SII headers onto an LN3 please take lots of pix and let us know... esp if you are using a turbo. I would be personally very interested.
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Old 04-17-2005, 12:28 PM   #13
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The SII headers/ EM are not the same as the LN3 head EM/headers the port locations are comp different, now if we found tube style exhaust manifolds off a symetrical port SII it is extreemly possible that the header flange can be swapped with the flange on the SII and extend the one oddball exhaust port tube and then you would be able to bolt the SII EM to the LN3 head, we are looking to swap the whole SII upper end onto the LN3 block so we wont have to mess with the exhaust manifolds too much
But I will keep an eye out fer ya, I might as well see what it would take to put the SII EM on the LN3, I can tell ya this, it will rewuire some work lol.

anyone got pics of SI and SII cams......

It will be nice to get the C chamber cc'd on the SI and SII heads, also if it works I will be checking the difference on the SI and II spring tension and pushrods etc.

James
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Old 04-17-2005, 04:53 PM   #14
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I'm still not quite sure what the whole point of this is? Okay, you swapped SII top end onto an LN3.. good for you.. but what'* the point? In the time and energy, it would take to accomplish this, you could P&P your heads and intake. Pick up some roller rockers [with the ratio of your choice.. or some L27 ones {like I am doing.. but they need to be drilled out a little}]. Then work on mounting the turbo and whatnot. Not really quite sure what the point is in doing this?

Bill is right about the coolant ports, too. Check out this pic of some SII Head Gaskets. Now look at your LN3 heads. Hell, look at my sig pic. No way in hell are those going to match up. I'm not trying to discourage you, however you need to be realistic here.. this isn't going to be possible. There just are too many variables. If you want SII power, grab an SII engine. You want to use the LN3, but features of SII, the parts are available.


-justin
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Old 04-18-2005, 02:07 AM   #15
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opensource: Havent swapped SII top end onto LN3 SI block yet, Al and I will be spending a day at the J yard tearing down a couple engines to check/compare dimentions and feasability.
I have the time and the energy as well as the tools to try this outfor nothing, it will just be a little investment of time, if it doesnt work because of massive cam differences (doesnt seem likely...) at least someone will have taken time to prove it'* not possible and document the procedings.
The heads on the rear 3800 in the 94 Twin engine cutlass 442 have already been ported with backcut valves etc.
We are trying this because for the price of a set of roller rockers we can put the SII heads with factory roller rockers, and it'* better flowing ports and larger valves, and the lower NA intake on with machined spacers, and fabricate an upper plenum that would allow use of a N* TB or equivalent. Along with the better SII exhaust manifolds and fab the Xover fot the turbo flange.

And about the coolant ports in the block head surfaces....take a look...
they are more than similar enough to work....
Name:  SIvsSIIblockheadsurfacecomparison.jpg
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from the looks of a SII and SI head gaskets the SII head gaskets will work with the SI block and adequatly seal all the coolant passages.

and why are we doing this? for good old fashioned learning, and because anything is possible with the right tools....and because it would be one more unique part of the 442 project.

Regards, James & Al
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Old 04-18-2005, 02:13 AM   #16
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SII manifolds better? They have serious casting issues...

HOnestly i'd take the time/money you'd take from a cam,custom regrind, heads etc, and just get them ported to hell or custom heads made by a reputable racing shop. Series II heads aren't exactly worlds ahead of Series I heads. Both have good lower RPM and blah for upper rpm power with stock cams.
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Old 04-18-2005, 02:33 AM   #17
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Redneck/Lowbuck racing is the name of the game....

Going faster fer cheap! I can get all the SII parts for dirt cheap through a buddy and if i hit my guess all the factory stuff will bolt onto the SI block, just need to check the cams

and yeah if the SII stuff does work on the SI block we may go ahead and spring for an aftermarket cam, or we may not, I am poretty sure about just fabricating a different upper intake plenum for the SII NA lwr intake, as it will let us use whatever TB we decide and position it in a way that makes packaging the Turbo system easier.

the def custom stuff I can see a def need for is a set of SII intake spacers (no problem there...) so that it will work with the SI blocks taller deck height, and a set of (possible that we can use the SI) pushrods of the correct length, which arent that much $$

I am not worried about the SII manifolds, as a set of flanges and header tubes arent that much and I have all the tools to fabricate whatever I need....and allot more engine bay room to do it in!

In factory cast heads the port flow #'* are better in the SII, than the SI heads
we are cheap basterds so we will be spending the 2$ admission each to the Jyard and find out what the differences are and if I can make it work with some lathe/millwork.

at the least we endup with a stickyable thread with good info, and prove/disprove the feasability, oh and at least I will have worked on my farmers tan......and beatin' up a couple of junk engines......

at least someone is actually going to see if it is possible......and report back...

Regards, James
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Old 04-18-2005, 09:52 AM   #18
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Measure the SII ports. I ported my intake 1" wide, 2.1" tall. Exhaust I don't know off-hand [I am at school right now]. But they are HUGE. I know the exhaust ports match the size of the headers.. so they are BIG. VERY BIG. I took a lot of material off.

I understand how you want to be different, but you can do with what you have, cheaper [I spent MAYBE $20 on tools to port], port the hell outta everything. The money you spend on the heads and such, you can pick up a radical cam, and some L27 rollers.

Trust me, I KNOW what you mean when you say you want to be different. I am 14, and look what I am doing to my engine. I am pioneering all this. I don't think anyone has ported LN3 heads. Plus I will be the only modded Bonneville owner in town.. and I will have done it affordably. I don't think I will be dropping more than $500 on this whole thing, including all the tune up items and such.


-justin
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:23 PM   #19
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opensource: a large intake port doesnt necisarily flow better as the best ports have the same crosssectional area in the whole port/intake design, and the SII heads have larger valves (that I can backcut and do 5 angle seat work on (I have a valve seat grinding machine) the SII heads will flow more than the SI and fully ported SI and SII heads will be that much better than the stock castings. pic of SII NA and SC heads....dont have any good shots of SI heads....
Name:  SIIL36ANDL67headsIntakeview.jpg
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I already have all the neccesary tolls for porting and polishing, and have done full port/bowl/chamber work, backcut valves, ported intake and exhaust on the 90 LN3 3800 we installed into the rear of the 94 Olds Cutlass 442, the same mods have also been done to the 3100 V6 in the front engine bay.
being different is part of the goal but more power for cheap is the main goal, after all with a unique car like our twin engine 94 Olds 442 needs some unique V6'*! we are looking to have twin 3800'* in the front and the rear of the 442 and have both of them Turbocharged/IC if we can get 350 Hp from each 3800 thats 700 Hp with AWD! YEEEHHAAWWWW!
It'* good your doing work to your engine, hotrodding is hotrodding, modern hotrodding is just a little more difficult...
BTW a good thing is to grind down the Injector boss on the intake port (you probably already saw this) as it is cast much larger than needed.

Here are some more pics for this thread...borrowed some photo'* and have been talking with a few Holden guys from downunder and evidently the swap hasnt been tried/accomplished but people have talked about it but i guess no one got off their duffers and tried it, or at least went to a Jyard to do some testing/measuring lol.
Name:  SIvsSIIblockheadsurfacecomparison.jpg
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and here are some pics of the SI and SII cams (the two on the right are the SII) and they seem to have the same length and lobe/journal spacing (the pics of each cam are from different positions) just with different lobe phasing, and maybe a different thread on the cam gear bolt, but the snouts look identical!
Name:  SIandSIIcamcomparison.jpg
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I am still reasearching this on the web but when I go to the Jyard we will know fer sure and I will be able to take measurements/dimentions of all the parts involved.

blazing new trails, REDNECK style! James
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Old 04-22-2005, 03:49 PM   #20
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Heading to the Jyard this Sunday! gonna tear into a few Bonni engines fer my research project.... will have the gruesom pics fer ya guys!

but Sat I am going to the HUGE Jefferson WI swapmeet! Wooo!

get some stuff fer my NOVA!!!!
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