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Old 05-24-2003, 11:15 PM   #41
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Choice guys, thats what it comes down to at the end of the day. K&N has established a reputation throughout the industry as a superior product and the product of choice for performance minded drivers. I completely agree with Smellbird, when I think of performance intake...I think K&N. We have associated the name with the product. I really don't know what a cone intake filter is called....I call it a K&N intake, its like Coke, I don't call cola, "cola soft drinks", I call it Coke...we associate the name with the product.

As with any product on the market, competition will be prevelant and it will encite discussion (sometimes heated as this one has). Take for example our own vendors. One of them offers a K&N filter will the smooth metal pipe short and long RAM intakes, the other does not. So regardless of who you think provides the better air flow, oil penetration or whatever, the passage of silicates...it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, you make a choice based on cost, word of mouth, literature, precedent and experience.

Both of you..Kuhl and Light1, you can bicker about it all you want, you both have your opinions and will stick by it, no matter what anyone says, and good for you. However, pandering and arguing over biased choices doesn't make one of you more right than the other.....keep that in mind.
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Old 05-25-2003, 12:16 AM   #42
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Hi

This is all too easy...

Si / UOA
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...c;f=3;t=000192
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...c;f=3;t=000487
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...c;f=3;t=000205
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...c;f=3;t=000112

You'll get the link to the diesel paper/reusuable when I find it. What made the comparison valuable...was not the cost "savings" of not changing the paper several times a week..but rather the amount of dirt the reusuable was passing through into the engine.

Check this out:
>>>Does DaimlerChrysler authorized the use of high-flow aftermarket air filters such as K&N with my Cummins engine?

No. DaimlerChrysler and Cummins do not recommend the use of increased flow air filters such as K&N, because they can allow contaminants into the intake that can ruin an engine (scoring the sides of the pistons, etc.)

(Copied off the www.cummins.com customer assistance FAQ)
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Old 05-25-2003, 01:42 AM   #43
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Okay now....Both of Kuhl & Light1 need to cool off a little here!
I'm an ex Heavy duty Mechanic specialising in CAT engines. I now work as a GM Partsman & deal with Isuzu & CAT engines everyday! What you both seem to forget is that Gasoline engines are way more forgiving than a Diesel engine will ever be! Diesels have a tolerance you can't even see when it comes to Fuel Injection! Yes, a high flow filter CAN HARM a diesel, but it will not harm a Gasoline engine because the tolerances are NOT there as in the Diesel! Frankly this is like comparing apples & oranges!
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Old 05-25-2003, 01:43 AM   #44
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Well those sites are great and all, but in every one of them the cause could not be directly linked to the K&N filter. It is just a bunch of fellows (like us) taking their best guess as to a problem Like we do). This kind of reasoning is great. It helps each person form their own opinion and no two people have the same experience or results. There are SO many variables that it just comes down to experience. Each person can decide on their own. I will admit there are lots more chances taken with the K&N'*, if theyre oiled wrong or installed improperly there is a chance of things happening. It is whatever you feel comfortable with. My uncle is runing a 3800 with 300,000+ miles (I think its around 310,000. got a new trans at 200) and 250,000 of those miles on a K&N cone. Needless to say im hooked, but like i said thats just my experience, yours will/would be completly different.
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Old 05-25-2003, 02:18 AM   #45
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Another thing to consider when using K&N panel filters, there is an issue with the filters edges not fitting securely into the box which could let dirt in. Personally I use a cone filter which there seems to be less contamination with, according to peoples oil tests, than the panels. So I dunno maybe thats were the big problem is at.

Ive heard of people correcting this using various forms of sealant with great success, so probably K&N need to fix that.

Thanks guys for stating your opinion on this. It was like trying to trying to saw through metal with a toothbrush.
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Old 05-25-2003, 02:21 AM   #46
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I recently started to use a K&N air filter, and purchased it before I saw the UOA'* of other users. My next UOA should be interesting. If there is high silicon AND high aluminum/iron, as compared to previous UOA'*, the only cuplrit for the high engine wear is the K&N because that is the only change I made. Knowing that someone else used a K&N and got low engine wear doesn't help me, actually my engine, at all. I know a 2 pack a day cigarette smoker that lived to see 100 years of age, but you won't convince me that smoking is good.

All is not lost though. K&N recommend a foam prefilter for dusty environments, and I will try that before going back to a paper filter:

http://www.knfilters.com/airforcewraps.htm

Sure, you add a little more restriction to the air flow, but that is pretty much a given when you improve the filtration. Also, a dirty K&N filters air better than a clean K&N, so just leaving the K&N in there should, over time, give better UOA results.

There is no need to get emotional over the K&N. It'* just a piece of oiled cotton gauze and it either gives great UOA'* or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you SHOULD be interested to find out why the engine is wearing out prematurely. UOA'* are used by large fleet operators, government, industry, etc. as a reliable indicator of engine health and to determine correct oil change intervals. Hopefully my UOA comes back with good wear indicators. It is possible with K&N, just don't take it for granted is all.

Keith.[/url]
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Old 05-25-2003, 03:23 AM   #47
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Hi

Dirt is dirt...and is deadly and not just for compression ignition engines either.
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Old 05-26-2003, 03:16 AM   #48
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Ya... btw I wasnt pissed about the K&N filters I was pissed at the guy making baseless claims. BIG difference.
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Old 05-26-2003, 12:07 PM   #49
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Hi

Used Oil Analysis are hardly "baseless claims". They indicate the ongoing progress of wear inside the engine by tracking the amount of metals from components and various contaminants of the oil such as fuel and silicon. The higher levels of silicon often indicates either a leak in the intake, or use of a "reusable" filter. If these elevated levels are not resolved, a long life for the engine is not in the offering.
While "grit" is often seen as a good thing in a person'* character, it is fatal for an engine.


Do not confuse anecdotal observations with lab analysis. Anecdotal observations are not valid indicators of anything factual . The two simply put, are not in the same league.
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Old 05-26-2003, 03:23 PM   #50
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A lab is a controlled enviroment, which means those working in it can make whatever they want to happen come true. I live in a uncontrolable enviroment; if it'* going to be dusty out, it'* going to be dusty out; if it rains, it rains. I don't control what is in the dust and dirt flying in the air, those in a lab can. The fact is if I set up a lab to show that pigs can fly, I can make it happen.
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