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Old 12-28-2007, 04:37 PM   #41
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I gotta go with Wren on this one.... Try shooting a 55 gallon drum with a 9mm and a 45. The 9 leaves a nice clean hole(high speed round). The 45 will punch a little bit bigger hole but the impact will look different. The 45 hole will be inset where the round hit at a slower speed, dented the metal and then broke through.

My favorite caliber is 45 Long Colt, but my preferred home defense weapon is still a 38 with semi-wad cutter hollow points. Revolvers may be old school and only carry 6 shots at most but they work every time. I don't want to have to count on not having a magazine spring failure or stove piped round when you need it to work.

When my father was a cop his preferred shooter was a Single Action Army Colt in 45LC. His reasoning was, with the force on the impact, a glancing shot to the arm is enough to take the perp off his feet long enough to get a second shot off if needed.
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Old 12-29-2007, 02:32 AM   #42
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Sandness, Jelly ain't a human.

There'* a reason the Military used the .45 for years, and the Marines went BACK to it after NATO settled on the 9.

In real-life scenario'*, the 9 over penetrates and leaves a dinky hole. That'* for a reason. The Laws of Land Warfare dictate that the ammunition and caliber of personal weapons cannot unneccesarily maim. Punch a whole, and let it go at that.

This serves a dual purpose. It didn't kill him. His buddy has to drag him off the field, and you just took 2 guys out of action. The .45 will kill with one shot twice as often as the 9mm, and nobody feels like dragging the body off until the battle is over.

.357'* are a VERY poor choice for self-defense for this reason. Far worse than the 9mm. Sure, muzzle energy is higher, but that'* worthless if the bullet doesn't STOP in your target. This means the energy transfer was complete.

The highest percentage of one-shot stops in self defense situations belongs to the .45 Auto. The lowest percentage of trigger pulls with an exposed defense gun belongs to the .45 Auto.

Lose the 9'* for home defense and move to a .380 or .45 Auto. I've got years shooting all three calibers at more targets than you could ever imagine, and my Military and Law Enforcement background and experience backs up my personal experiences.

If you're dead set on the 9mm, load with subsonic rounds ONLY. Low velocity hollow points.
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Old 12-29-2007, 04:24 AM   #43
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I agree with what you say in terms of shooting FMJ- as our military is limited to due to the Geneva Convention. However, when you shoot modern hollow points, fragmenting bullets, and other expanding rounds the story changes. When hollow points hit flesh, they expand and leave a a bigger wound, but also act like a parachute as the increased surface area of the bullet helps slow the projectile. I've done quite a bit of reading on the issue and it appears that both the 9mm and 45 in HP'* have similiar penetration. I realize that the 45 has a slightly better one-shot stopping ability than the 9mm, but I didn't find that terribly important. If I have someone attack me, I will shoot until they stop. I will probably unload half a dozen rounds or more before the attacker falls- which likely would happen no matter what round I was firing. At least with my 9, I know there 10 more in the queue just in case.

I know that jelly ain't human. But it acts very close to human flesh (minus bones) and provides a standard medium to objectively perform ballistics tests. If there was something better, I'm sure that the it would trump ballistics gel.

No, I don't have any law enforcement or military background. I tried to join the army, but my health kept me out. I do respect your experience and use the heaviest, slowest JHP'* in my current 9mm. But as I got bit by the gun bug, I know I will be getting a 45 among other things sometime down the road, along with a CHP. Until then my 12ga buckshot and 9mm JHPs will be effective if SHTF.
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Old 12-29-2007, 05:42 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Moving to a rougher neighborhood puts you in a better position to get that stolen. It was also a VERY poor choice for home defense.

Intimidating looking is going to get you in trouble too. If you pull it out, you better be ready to pull the trigger instead of waving it around and jacking a round in the chamber.

The proper choice of home defense firearm would have been a .45 Auto handgun. They are VERY highly rated for one-shot stops, and don't penetrate more than one or two walls at the most.

The higher velocity and relatively small caliber you chose will travel through your neighbor'* house.

Proper ammo selection should also be researched for LEGAL reasons to prevent you from getting into hot water should have to use it. Unfortunately, your choice of defense weapons can HANG you in court regardless of how 'right' you were. Ammo selection is also a big factor. You are far less likely to be prosecuted or sued if you use a simple semi-auto handgun instead of assault or assault-lookalike weapon.
x2. Also, anyone with an IQ of 10 can tackle you before you can pick that gun up, load it, and point it at them. It'* not a close range weapon (from my own personal experience). Although, it is a very good, fun weapon.
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:26 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandness
On the flip side, with all the adrenaline going through your system while being attacked could prove difficult to make well placed shots. In which case, I like the idea of having 16rnds rather than 8 or 9 with a 45.
One other thing to keep in mind.... If you're in a home invasion setting and for some reason the shot doesn't kill him, you're going to end up in front of a judge and jury. Any lawyer looking to "defend the rights of his innocent client who accidentally stumbled into your house before he was viciously maimed by the evil homeowner" is gonna use the fact that you attacked his client with a high capacity handgun. High capacity magazines were banned from sale for quite a while and may end up on the banned list again depending on the next election.

This can also be applied to the use of that AK for home defense... Not saying that was proposed here, just sighting a point. With the 45 so many manufacturers have made 45s based off of the original John Browning model, the law a averages will help to defile the same claim. Same thing for a revolver.... it'* a lot less menacing.
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Old 12-29-2007, 11:20 AM   #46
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Hi-caps have always been legal where I live, so it'* actually something my BETTER lawyer could bend in my favor. "Your Honor, the intruder was so determined to attack my client that even multiple hits from a .45 didn't stop him. He kept coming, still trying to kill my client, until the final round finally knocked him down."

I'm seriously hoping that more states begin adapting "castle" laws.
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Old 12-29-2007, 11:59 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar MAN
Hi-caps have always been legal where I live,

Not true, the ban was a federal mandate.....

http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/rkba/awb.htm
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:01 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95seand78z28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar MAN
Hi-caps have always been legal where I live,

Not true, the ban was a federal mandate.....

http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/rkba/awb.htm
That'* correct. The 10-round limit was Federal (until it expired). Now some States or Counties may have limits, but there is no Federal limit any longer.


There is always alot of debate and many misconceptions about home defense and personal defense. My suggestion is to take a class. Even if you don't intend to become licensed to carry concealed. You'll learn alot about the legalities both before and after an incident. In many cases, your simple WORDS in describing how the invasion or attack took place can hang you in court. You have to learn what verbage you can and cannot use, even if you were defending your own home. Ammunition selection and type of firearm can also hang you.

And remember, there is no appeal from the grave. For either you or your attacker. You have to survive to be able to appeal your conviction, and you're alot less likely to be sued by the attacker'* family than by the surviving attacker.

Simple rules:

1. Always shoot face-to-face. Never from the side or behind. If he'* trying to leave, or looks like it, you will be prosecuted if you shoot him.

2. Never move a body. Even if you screw up.

3. Always say you shot to STOP him. Never say the K word. You were trying to STOP the THREAT. Nothing more. But don't stop shooting until it'* CLEARLY over if you know what I mean.

4. Never use hand-loaded ammunition. A good lawyer can make it look like you hand-loaded 'man-killer'*', even though you could prove they were mild loads, a Jury won't understand that. Off-the-shelf commercial ammunition with non-killer names. Speer Gold Dots are a good choice.

5. Your ammunition choice will vary by season based on climate. Different loads penetrate heavy clothing better than others. But that load may not be appropriate for summer. Always care what'* beyond your target and the next 3 or 4 walls.

6. Most important. Research your local laws regarding home defense and personal defense. Some places it may be legal to shoot on your PROPERTY, but in others, it'* only legal IN THE HOUSE. You have to know ahead of time.

(These are just off the top of my head from a couple classes I took to get my concealed carry permit)
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Old 12-29-2007, 06:24 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
6. Most important. Research your local laws regarding home defense and personal defense. Some places it may be legal to shoot on your PROPERTY, but in others, it'* only legal IN THE HOUSE. You have to know ahead of time.

I love New Hampshire.... It'* like Texas in many ways.... We don't have the no fight if flight thing where you can't shoot if he'* leaving your property. Just make sure you kill, eh, stop him.....
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Old 12-29-2007, 06:36 PM   #50
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I don't agree with that. Personal property isn't grounds for deadly force. If he'* running away, threat to you is leaving also.
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