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Old 11-04-2004, 11:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by vital49
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Originally Posted by Princess Jeanie
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Originally Posted by vital49
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Originally Posted by Princess Jeanie
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Originally Posted by FiReDeViL
i live in saginaw county and work in Genessee county both took kerry... why? i say its because of the job situations here, both places have high union counts i cant begin to count the # of plants in flint alone... GM has a Grand Blanc plant, Delphi energy, Flint Metal Fab, and gm truck and bus so there quite a few there......saginaw has a few gm plants......
Yep. Yep. Definatly, Unions go Democratic, at least they did this time. I think that sharing the votes would have been much better representation of what Michiganians really vote. Genessee and Wayne are not a representation of anything north of there-but they are the centers of population so they have more weight.
True, but consider overall it was still driven by the popular vote...by the most populated areas. I think the electoral system within a state is ridiculous. How much more divisive could we get?!?!
Well, like it'* been stated on other threads-without the electorial system, candidates would just have to carry major cities like New York, LA, Chicago etc. States like those in the Moutain region and the little New England states wouldn't matter at all-what'* fair in that?
Then I guess we shouldn't call it a democracy...should we? Sounds like more of a republic representative hierarchy.

I pose the question to you...what'* not fair in that??? Majority vote..regardless of the geographic make up.
We don't call it a democracy. It'* a representive democracy. If it were a true democracy really most of the people we elected two days ago wouldn't have a purpose-we'd all vote everything (which would be a pain). If you have a problem with the electorial system, then you should be taking major issue with the Senate. They operate on the same principle. The ensure that even less populated states and smaller states have an equal say. The electorial college is doing the same thing, while giving some extra weight to the more populated states (Electors=states senators+number of State Reps).
The point is (and Sol brought this up in another thread), the states are really in many ways their own identity. We belong to our states, our states belong to the federal governement. Our states vote for who the popular vote within the state is. Even states that create districts and split electorial votes have the two Senatorial votes go to whoever wins the majority in the state. I really think the whole thing makes a ton of sense.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:08 PM   #32
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[quote="Princess Jeanie"][quote="vital49"][quote="Princess Jeanie"]
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Originally Posted by FiReDeViL
Well, like it'* been stated on other threads-without the electorial system, candidates would just have to carry major cities like New York, LA, Chicago etc.
It already IS that way in Illinois. Chicago politics are what declare the state status, seemingly regardless of what the rest of us think.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Jeanie
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Originally Posted by vital49
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Originally Posted by Princess Jeanie
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Originally Posted by vital49
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Originally Posted by Princess Jeanie
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReDeViL
i live in saginaw county and work in Genessee county both took kerry... why? i say its because of the job situations here, both places have high union counts i cant begin to count the # of plants in flint alone... GM has a Grand Blanc plant, Delphi energy, Flint Metal Fab, and gm truck and bus so there quite a few there......saginaw has a few gm plants......
Yep. Yep. Definatly, Unions go Democratic, at least they did this time. I think that sharing the votes would have been much better representation of what Michiganians really vote. Genessee and Wayne are not a representation of anything north of there-but they are the centers of population so they have more weight.
True, but consider overall it was still driven by the popular vote...by the most populated areas. I think the electoral system within a state is ridiculous. How much more divisive could we get?!?!
Well, like it'* been stated on other threads-without the electorial system, candidates would just have to carry major cities like New York, LA, Chicago etc. States like those in the Moutain region and the little New England states wouldn't matter at all-what'* fair in that?
Then I guess we shouldn't call it a democracy...should we? Sounds like more of a republic representative hierarchy.

I pose the question to you...what'* not fair in that??? Majority vote..regardless of the geographic make up.
We don't call it a democracy. It'* a representive democracy. If it were a true democracy really most of the people we elected two days ago wouldn't have a purpose-we'd all vote everything (which would be a pain). If you have a problem with the electorial system, then you should be taking major issue with the Senate. They operate on the same principle. The ensure that even less populated states and smaller states have an equal say. The electorial college is doing the same thing, while giving some extra weight to the more populated states (Electors=states senators+number of State Reps).
The point is (and Sol brought this up in another thread), the states are really in many ways their own identity. We belong to our states, our states belong to the federal governement. Our states vote for who the popular vote within the state is. Even states that create districts and split electorial votes have the two Senatorial votes go to whoever wins the majority in the state. I really think the whole thing makes a ton of sense.

Very well said! America is a collection of countries united by a central government to provide cohesion and saety. A state is a country. We are a union of countires -- states. It was set this way for a reason. Some assume we are a collection of provinces, indeed, many Americans treat it that way as well.

The Federal government is supposed to respect state'* rights. Our founding fathers wanted a weak federal government and strong states. It was never supposed to fall on the federal government to pay for healthcare, social security, etc... Our constitution grants us the right to the pursuit of happiness --- not the guarentee of happiness. While charity and community are extreemly important, and right, it should start with individuals, and communities, not the federal government. IMHO. The more the federal government gets involved, the more taxes we pay and the less inclined to charity and volunteerism we get.

My last point I want to add to your good post is that we are not a democracy per se, but a republic. A republic is a constitutional/representative democracy. What makes us different than a straight democracy is that the constitution'* rights are guaranteed. In a democracy there are no guaranteed rights, but everything is strictly to the whim of popular vote. This has certain dangers if popular thought counters sound logic because of persuasion in the public eye.

Our ancestors knew this when they wrote the pledge of allegience, and the battle hymn of the republic.
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Old 11-05-2004, 12:59 AM   #34
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Wow. I think I have to agree with Kevo
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Old 11-05-2004, 09:23 AM   #35
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Very well written, Kevo. Thank you for clarifing the democracy.
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Old 11-05-2004, 09:27 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy Kyle
Wow. I think I have to agree with Kevo
Thanks!

People don't understand why we have the electoral college, but it is for the very reason that we are states that we do. This way, all states will be represented. Without the electoral college, many states rights would not be represented because some of the heavier congested states would dominate and trump the less populated states. Each state must be given the right to stand on it'* own in regard to positions politically. Again, we are not the united proviences, but the united states -- a union of countries, kind of what the EU is. It'* just that over time people have forgotten this fact and look at states as proviences.

Every state is soverign to an extent. We have a governer, congress, supreeme court, etc.... The federal government is comprised of representatives from each state -- kind of like ambassadors. Each state even has it'* own constitution. We are NOT provinces, but a collection of countries united by a federal government that is supposed to represent each and every states wishes and conditions. Thus popular vote would trump states rights and people in other states (read: countries) would dictate to the others without a system to allow states to speak their own interests. Thus our founding fathers created the electoral college. It may not be perfect, but it assures the people from each state, as a whole, will be considered.

I'm not giving some new thought -- It'* been in our history books all along.
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Old 11-05-2004, 09:31 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy Kyle
Wow. I think I have to agree with Kevo
Thanks!

People don't understand why we have the electoral college, but it is for the very reason that we are states that we do. This way, all states will be represented. Without the electoral college, many states rights would not be represented because some of the heavier congested states would dominate and trump the less populated states. Each state must be given the right to stand on it'* own in regard to positions politically. Again, we are not the united proviences, but the united states -- a union of countries, kind of what the EU is. It'* just that over time people have forgotten this fact and look at states as proviences.

Every state is soverign to an extent. We have a governer, congress, supreeme court, etc.... The federal government is comprised of representatives from each state -- kind of like ambassadors. Each state even has it'* own constitution. We are NOT provinces, but a collection of countries united by a federal government that is supposed to represent each and every states wishes and conditions. Thus popular vote would trump states rights and people in other states (read: countries) would dictate to the others without a system to allow states to speak their own interests. Thus our founding fathers created the electoral college. It may not be perfect, but it assures the people from each state, as a whole, will be considered.
Again, well written. Thank you for the clarification! Are you a teacher? You should be....you're well versed and break things down to simple language!
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Old 11-05-2004, 11:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vital49
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy Kyle
Wow. I think I have to agree with Kevo
Thanks!

People don't understand why we have the electoral college, but it is for the very reason that we are states that we do. This way, all states will be represented. Without the electoral college, many states rights would not be represented because some of the heavier congested states would dominate and trump the less populated states. Each state must be given the right to stand on it'* own in regard to positions politically. Again, we are not the united proviences, but the united states -- a union of countries, kind of what the EU is. It'* just that over time people have forgotten this fact and look at states as proviences.

Every state is soverign to an extent. We have a governer, congress, supreeme court, etc.... The federal government is comprised of representatives from each state -- kind of like ambassadors. Each state even has it'* own constitution. We are NOT provinces, but a collection of countries united by a federal government that is supposed to represent each and every states wishes and conditions. Thus popular vote would trump states rights and people in other states (read: countries) would dictate to the others without a system to allow states to speak their own interests. Thus our founding fathers created the electoral college. It may not be perfect, but it assures the people from each state, as a whole, will be considered.
Again, well written. Thank you for the clarification! Are you a teacher? You should be....you're well versed and break things down to simple language!
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:54 PM   #39
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LOL No, I'm not a history teacher. My major in college was Theology and my minor in ancient world history. However, I have a passion for all history.

I feel it is very important to understand our country'* history lest we forget the lessons of the past. People may think history is boring and in all practical purposes useless, but it is not. Society is built brick upon brick from our past. To fail to understand the past means we will be ignorant in the present, and foolhardy in the future.

If I could issue a challenge, I would challenge each citizen to get out there in their local libraries and such and really understand the roots of our nation and why we do it like we do. It is important to read and comprehend the constitution, the bill of rights, and the declaration of independence. It is important to understand the mindset and the ethics of those men and women who effectively founded this great nation.

As a theology student I've had to study Greek. We were taught that to effectively understand the translations we needed to understand the cultural mindset, customs, morals, and practices of the writers and their comtemporaries. I feel this is also important when trying to understand the above documents. Otherwise, you will read -- but not FEEL where they are coming from.

Sure, we've made many mistakes in the past, and will continue to make some more, but America is known as the great experiment. Our founding fathers didn't know if it would even work, but they tried tirelessly to find a way to found a country that would not only stand the test of time, but would remain free. I feel they have done so successfully. Every other country in antiquity that tried some form of democracy or a republic failed to keep the power with the people. The Greeks tried, the Romans as well as others. Each time the freedoms eroded and the form of government changed into either a monarchy, empire, or dictatorship. This is one of the lessons our founding fathers knew when they established state'* rights, the electoral college, the checks and balances system of government(executive, judicial, and legislative), the constitution, and the bill of rights.

Anyway, I hope this helps!
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Old 11-05-2004, 07:07 PM   #40
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At least Bush won the Majority and Electoral votes, so there is no dillema. Even if Kerry did wait for the absontee votes, its not like he will get every vote, most likely it would of been close to 50/50 just like this whole election, which would of done jack for him. At least he did the respectable thing, which can be admired. Im sure its tough losing something like this, especially since he and Edwards has no job now.lol
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