OK!!! Who Still Wants a Porche?? Or a BMW For That Matter.. - Page 2 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 09-12-2002, 12:03 PM   #11
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Isn't Saab GM owned now!?


[quote="speedyguy"]
Quote:
rather die in a 4-500hp Bonneville than a boring old BMW. Nice car but boring.

I will AGREE with you there, TY. IMO, BMW'* are hyped up way too much...same with Mercedes. I also think their exterior design is godUGLY buuuut that'* a different story.

Alright. Now we want to compare safety data. Well, unfortuately, there IS no listing for a BMW fullsize car. So I'm going to have to compare 1995 european cars such as lexus for fullsize (that'* all that'* there, I guess europe dosn't believe in full size!)

1995 Bonneville: 5/3 (driver/passenger)
1995 Lexus GS 300 4-DR. 3/3

(smaller class)
1995 Volkswagen Golf III 4-DR. 3/3
1995 Volkswagen Jetta III 4-DR. 3/3

or look here.

http://www.crashtest.com/bmw/ie.htm
http://www.crashtest.com/pontiac/ie.htm

Some of them are similar, but overall the bonneville has more "excellent" marks than the BMW. (I thought BMW made more cars...not a huge selection they have) I guess it is just a personal opinion, because from what i've seen from the crash tests I'm not convinced that the BMW is better for saftey than my bonneville...or any bonneville, for that matter.


And BTW...a just FYI, the BMW in the above picture had a ranking of either poor or marginal. Maybe even "acceptable" I can't tell what year it is...there'* not enough left of it. And as for the porche, hmm. I can't even find a safety rating for it. heh all i can say is that they dubbed it right when they called it the 911 (hehe)

I guess like Cameron, I should say I am not trying to start a domestic vs. import war here (there was not my intention with those pictures!) I'm just defending GM'* cars as equal, not lesser than.
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Old 09-12-2002, 12:14 PM   #12
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True that some European car companies are more innovative than the North American.. but they also have the Autobahn to deal with ( ahh.. the luxury of no speed limit ), that allowed their engineer to push even more.

However, have you seen the insurance and replacement cost of imported cars ?? I mean maintainance changes such as original rotors and belts for instance are most cases a lot more expensive then their domestic counter - parts. If I had the money and luxury.. ( ha ha ha.. I wish ) then it might be a different story.. but if I had all that.. I"d throw a jet engine or two on the Bonnie...
my 2 cents ( before tax.. ha ha ha )

P.*.
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
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Old 09-12-2002, 12:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifter420
P.*.
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
Lexus IS Toyota.

My dad has a '00 ES300, it'* simply a rebadged, fancy Camry. Most of the Lexus models here I believe are available in Japan as Toyotas. For instance, the Lexus IS300 is the Toyota Altezza in Japan (and that'* where the name for the ghey lights came from, in case you were wondering...)
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Old 09-12-2002, 12:28 PM   #14
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[quote="csprague"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifter420
P.*.
I thought Lexus was japanese ?? Weren't they part of Toyota at one time ??
uote]

Oh come on. Give me SOME CREDIT...it'* the only car listed that WASN'T domestic!! lol
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Old 09-12-2002, 12:43 PM   #15
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Terminator:

I believe you missed my point, German engineering or not, a larger car TENDS to be safer than a smaller car (not always the case but most of the time). As for the "apples to apples", the comparison was not based on same year, or whether it was domestic or import, but rather SIZE of the vehicle. I was pointing out that just because something is well engineered doesn't mean it is going to be the safest.

You also wrote...

WORST VEHICLES 1990-1994
Geo Tracker
Chevrolet Corvette
Isuzu Amigo
Hyundai Scoupe
Ford Mustang
Ford Festiva
Pontiac Lemans
Geo Metro
Ford Escort
Chevrolet S10 pickup

Funny how almost all the best are imports, and all the worst are domestic.

Ok, lets move up a few years to 1997:

Which vehicles score best?
J.D. Power and Associates: Initial quality survey, 3 months - 1997 list

Compact: Saturn SL, Toyota Tercel (tie)
Entry midsize: Nissan Altima
Premium midsize: Honda Accord
Sporty: Acura Integra
Entry luxury: Infiniti I30
Premium luxury: Lexus LS400
Compact pickup: Toyota Tacoma
Minivan: Honda Odyssey
Midsize sport utility: Infiniti QX4
Full-size sport utility: Lexus LX450
Full-size pickup: Ford F-series

Thats Funny, I see ONE Domestic vehicle, a pickup truck.

I count six (6) imports on the 1990-1994 worst list. Lets count them together shall we?

Geo Tracker (made by Suzuki--Japan)
Isuzu Amigo (Japan)
Hyundai Scoupe (Korea)
Ford Festiva (Various countries including Japan and the US)
Pontiac Lemans (Korea)
Geo Metro (made by Suzuki--Japan)

I believe the appropriate characteristic these cars all have in common is that they are all subcompact (tiny) cars

A larger car--regardless of where it is made--is generally safer.

As for the 1997 list, since when is Tennessee a foreign country?? You know, the state below Kentucky and above Alabama and Mississippi??? Last I knew, the civil war resolved that issue in 1865. The Saturn is not an import.

I agree with you on many points, but Airbags were tested as early as 1973 in GM automobiles, AMC had AWD/4WD before it was purchased by Chrysler, (Chrysler was also using AWD in many of their later first generation mini vans), and as Tamara mentioned above, SAAB and Volvo are now owned/partially owned by GM. GM also has Joint ventures with Isuzu, Toyota, and Deawoo. Ford owns/has joint ventures with Jaguar and Mazda, Chrysler is now owned by Diamler-Chrysler (Mercedes-Benz) and has joint ventures with Lotus, Lamborgini, and Mitsubishi. There are others.

Whether a vehicle is made domestically or not has absolutely no bearing on whether it is safe as many "domestics" are assembled/designed elsewhere, and many "imports" are assembled/designed in the U.*. and Canada.

One final note...the U.*. is slower to incorporate some of the cutting-edge technologies because the Federal Government requires very rigorous testing ranging from emissions to safety. That is why airbags, although tested early in the '70'* took so long to appear in production vehicles. It is a good thing, too. If the early versions of Supplemental Restraint devises were implemented, they would have had the same effect on adults as the current ones have on toddlers.

I do, however, understand your frustration with over generalizations and attacks on perfectly well engineered vehicles...regardless of the manufacturer.
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Old 09-12-2002, 02:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
As for the 1997 list, since when is Tennessee a foreign country?? You know, the state below Kentucky and above Alabama and Mississippi??? Last I knew, the civil war resolved that issue in 1865. The Saturn is not an import.
Ha ha ha, wow we have some real funny people on this forum now
I was looking more at the tercel, but ok, I'll give you that one.

I'm not arguing on this anymore because its pointless, and actually pretty stupid. I have my own opinion, and with the number of automobile accidents I've seen personally, all I'm going to say is that no matter what the wonderful US government rates modern imports, I would MUCH rather be in a Volkswagon Jetta over a Saturn or ANY domestic car of that size, 5-Series BMW over a Bonneville, etc.. in a serious crash ANYDAY. The reasoning for it is much deeper than anyone on this forum could possibly understand, but I will believe in it for the rest of my life.

The Bonneville is a safe car, I'm not arguing that, but would I rather be in a Bonneville over a BMW or Mercedes of equal size?? HELL FREKIN NO !! If you would rather, thats your opinion, and your entitled to it.

Quote:
Volvo are now owned/partially owned by GM
Ummm, no. Volvo is Partially owned by Ford. GM has nothing to do with them. It sucks that Ford even has anything to do with them because they are worse than GM would be. Volvo is a great car company, as well as Saab, and both have held records for building very safe cars, ask anyone in the auto industry. I just hope both those companies hold strong to that heritage for many years to come, and dont let Ford and GM make them start taking cheap *** American known shortcuts to save money. The Dailmer-Chrysler merger was probably the best thing that has ever happened to
Chrysler, since in many peoples minds they are the WORST of the big 3. Talk about build quality?? And POS Cars / Transmissions ?? Driven a Carvan lately and NOT had a Tranny problem? Better yet, driven a NEON lately? Pfffft. One big snapped together erector set of plastic. 2002 Neon vs. 2002 VW Jetta If you'd rather be in the Neon, go for it, I wish you the best.


Quote:
I believe you missed my point, German engineering or not, a larger car TENDS to be safer than a smaller car (not always the case but most of the time). As for the "apples to apples", the comparison was not based on same year, or whether it was domestic or import, but rather SIZE of the vehicle.
No, I understood your point just fine. Your saying you feel safer in your newer bigger car compared to your older, smaller VW. What I'm saying is, now trying comparing your newer bigger car to something the same year and size made by Volvo, Saab, BMW or Mercedes and see what happens.


Quote:
I was pointing out that just because something is well engineered doesn't mean it is going to be the safest.
Uhmm. Ok, what the hell is automotive engineering for then, looks? Gimme a break

Quote:
A small Porsche or BMW may be safer than other small cars, but they are still no match for a Bonneville.
I just pray to god you, or anyone in their Bonneville never gets into a serious accident in the first place, especially against a German engineeerd car of the same size such as a BMW 5 or 7 series. This whole "I'm a tank and the bonneville is the safest thing on 4 wheels" ego will be buried veeeeery quickly.

This is my last post on this topic.
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Old 09-12-2002, 03:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminator
I'm not arguing on this anymore because its pointless
No one is arguing...just different opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminator
The Bonneville is a safe car, I'm not arguing that, but would I rather be in a Bonneville over a BMW or Mercedes of equal size?? HELL FREKIN NO !!
That'* a good thing, because there is no BMW listed on any of the crash sites I looked at that is ranked in the same size/weight range as the bonneville.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminator
What I'm saying is, now trying comparing your newer bigger car to something the same year and size made by Volvo, Saab, BMW or Mercedes and see what happens.
Term...I already did that...page 1...
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Old 09-12-2002, 03:14 PM   #18
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CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG ... HA HA HA HA HA
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Old 09-12-2002, 03:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifter420
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG ... HA HA HA HA HA
Do you think it would be legal for me to back over all the honda civics i see, Murdock? Or what about volkswagons? Especially those bugs...
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Old 09-12-2002, 04:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifter420
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG ... HA HA HA HA HA
Do you think it would be legal for me to back over all the honda civics i see, Murdock? Or what about volkswagons? Especially those bugs...
Sure Tamara... I did.... and all them civics are so small.. the only thing on mine was a little paint from his bumper ( buffed that out in 30 seconds ).. you seen what I left him... .. I could fit all 3 of those cars you mentioned in the Bonnie... ha ha ha ha.... their a little bit bigger than those Power Wheels... ha ha ha ... as long as you don't get caught.... it'* all good and legal ha ha ha... just remember.. " I didn't do it.. nobody saw me do it... you can't prove anything"
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