Engine went down any suggestions? (Final Musings) - Page 6 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


General GM Chat When starting new posts, please specify YEAR, MAKE, MODEL, ENGINE type, and whatever modifications you have made. Chat about all things GM (and related cars). Off-topic stuff should be in the Lounge, and all Model specific mechanical problems should be posted in the proper forum.

Reply
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-01-2006, 07:37 PM   #51
Senior Member
Posts like a Camaro
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 857
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bugsi is on a distinguished road
Default

I can (yes *can*) believe that your LIM can be in pretty bad condition and not be leaking, so your Saturn dealership'* half-remedy of replacing the upper gasket and intake, plus your coolant and plugs is *mostly* going to work in that your car is likely to run fine, without drinking coolant for some time, possibly even years. (Although not changing the oil is a clear sign that they're just grossly incompetent. Our own experience here on this club shows that some number of engines eat their bearings when the coolant gets in it. Mine didn't -yet?- but others here have not been so lucky.) Changing the oil is the obvious no-brainer here. I'd like to know what their answer is to the question "Why didn't you change the oil when you changed the upper intake and gasket? You know there will be coolant in the oil with that type of failure, right?"

So I can kind of see them trying to get away without doing the lower, in that your car may run fine (after an oil change of course), but even us amateur mechanics would never even think of doing the upper without doing the LIM gasket at the same time, and your 2nd opinion Pontiac dealer said so too! Your Saturn people are idiots. I'd SO be at small claims court. You can go the route of letters on attorney stationary, begging, etc., but none of them are coercive, whereas a small claims court filing is cheap, fast, and produces a legal judgment. I wouldn't have even let them do the warranty work. I'd have just sued for the costs and had Pontiac do it.
Bugsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2006, 10:47 PM   #52
Senior Member
Posts like a Northstar
Thread Starter
 
charliemax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Valley Forge, PA
Posts: 598
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
charliemax is on a distinguished road
Default

Another frightening thing...... while this was going on, they replaced the tensioner and serpentine belt, put in a new ICM, replaced two sensors and a leveler, AND the uppers. All work is guaranteed for 12/12,000. So if any of them go bad, and I don't want to pay, i will have to let them touch my car again. OMG!!

What i went through, most people probably don't make it with them. They just wear the customer out. They didn't wear me out, which probably completely annoyed them. Although they did get to avoid an argument on the LIM because I hit some time I just couldn't deal with them. Everything i have done is also to comply with PA law. (Disclaimer: this is as described to me by Legal Aid, check your own state laws and get legal help if you are not sure about your situation) Under our Lemon Law (very little for used cars), and Magnuson-Moss, there are just a few provisions that have to be met for my case.

1) I have to give them 3 opportunities to fix the car (BTW, this is pretty much a national standard on new cars under the Lemon Law,also). If I had the work done at Pontiac, nothing would have been recoverable, because they didn't have the 3rd chance yet.

Once they have the third chance, any part or all of the "remedy" not met, is recoverable with the work done by someone else. I also wanted them to do the uppers, just in case I had hydrolocked and bent a rod or popped a piston. They would have been stuck with a dead engine, and no way to hide their responsibility.

2) I have to show that the "remedy" didn't work or was only partially done. One way is to have the LIM replaced and a letter from the repairshop/dealer that the LIM was compromised by the uppers failure. The very best way is to get my hands on the Factory Service Bulletin for the upper failure. They almost always contain the official "remedy", and it would have to include replacing the LIM, oil etc. I might be able to get one at the Pontiac dealer. I can't just print it off the internet.

3) I need everything documented, which I already have ad nauseum.

Now when I have that stuff......

4) I should give them opportunity to reimburse me before small claims. As you noted, it actually expedites things. I send the registered letter and they have 30 days to make good, or we litigate. The reason for the lawyer letterhead, is that their lawyer will react like I have seen corporate lawyers who I have rubbed elbows with. They will throw a chitfit that they even had to read a letter for five minutes for what will amount to $4-500, and want somebody'* butt for putting them in an untenable legal position. The lawyer letterhead indicates to him that all my legal ducks are in order, and there'* no bluff. With this, he will do exactly what you said and pay.

I'm out a $100 for the 2nd opinion and oil and I'm just guessing the LIM would be $350 or so. My only risk is if I went the repairshop route and the LIM isn't bad. But I think our buddies over at the Pontiac dealer will support what they said in their diagnosis, to get the work. Don't you think?

Their (whatever you want to call it, I'm out of descriptors) behavior put them in a bad position. So at most i have a few hours paper work, and a drop off at the Pontiac for a day. Then within 30 days, I will have been "made whole" again. I don't think I can get them for "pain and suffering", I would have to have broken something for that. Maybe there is potential recovery for having experienced a monumental pain in the ***.

I will have to do a "my lessons learned" post in this thread. Dealer warranties, the power of AAA Plus, ways to positively know your Ms are going, strategy etc
charliemax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2006, 01:13 AM   #53
Senior Member
True Car Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Grand Rapids, Mi
Posts: 5,656
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Archon is on a distinguished road
Default

Saturn of the Valley....it has such a tranquil feeling about the name....

After changing out the oil, having an oil analysis done could tell you if you're still getting coolant into it. Could save having to have the intakes taken off again. Unfortunately, it won't show the condition of the gaskets...just if they're still leaking.
Archon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2006, 03:18 PM   #54
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North of Buffalo, NY *** NEBF '05, '06, '07 *** ***ONBF & NYBF 06; 07*** ***WCBF 06***
Posts: 0
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
singscountry1967 is on a distinguished road
Default

...not changing the oil after replacing the UIM gasket is like putting your dirty underwear back on after showering...
singscountry1967 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2006, 04:41 PM   #55
Senior Member
Posts like a Camaro
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 857
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bugsi is on a distinguished road
Default

*NOW* it sounds like you have a plan! And I'm quite certain you should be able to recover the extra $100 for the second opinion. Go with your plan, take care of your car, and make Saturn pay for it.

I agree that your best bet is to have a service bulletin that says to do the LIM gasket when changing out the upper. Maybe one of the gearheads here with dealership connections can help out with that.

Other than that, I think you should even be okay to drive the car for a while while you get this sorted out and ultimately have Pontiac do the LIM gasket. (And I think I read that you already changed the oil, so you should be mostly okay to drive. Keep an eye on your coolant levels and on your oil!)

Good luck!
Bugsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2006, 09:36 PM   #56
Senior Member
Posts like a Northstar
Thread Starter
 
charliemax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Valley Forge, PA
Posts: 598
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
charliemax is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by singscountry1967
...not changing the oil after replacing the UIM gasket is like putting your dirty underwear back on after showering...
... Yes ... In this case, like dirty underwear with Ben Gay spread on the inside. Woo Hoo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsi
*NOW* it sounds like you have a plan! Good luck!
If you look back, there was some point when I said it was "pucker time". Generally that'* the time when I began hoping for the best, but was getting things prepared for the worst. Everybody was a great help. It would be difficult to expect any less from within this fine community.

I confess to some discomfort about going on about "me" and "my problem". I try to throttle back here as everyone is succinct and to the point in their posts. And as you can see I flop to the side of wordy. But i just couldn't resist. Those dealer folks were ripe material and turned what should have been a short story, into a full length novel.

Again, thanks.... and be sure to check your coolant. You never know where it will lead you.
charliemax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2006, 11:57 PM   #57
Senior Member
True Car Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Grand Rapids, Mi
Posts: 5,656
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Archon is on a distinguished road
Default

FWIW, I can find no technical service bulletin (other than to announce a new upper gasket) pertainlng to replacement of the intake gaskets. The "how to" does not list changing the oil as part of the procedure.
Archon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2006, 10:42 PM   #58
Senior Member
Posts like a Northstar
Thread Starter
 
charliemax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Valley Forge, PA
Posts: 598
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
charliemax is on a distinguished road
Default A few final thoughts...............

I can't find a Service Bulletin either.

-Changed the oil and it was glossy black. I've lost track of when I did it, but a month or so before the intake failure, I switched the car from dino oil to synthetic. At that time I probably had a tiny coolant leakage that progressed over 5-6 weeks. By the second failure, I had probably dumped 2 gallons of coolant. Yet, there was no chocolate milk at all in the oil. Suspicious that synthetic oil doesn't show coolant as well as dino does. Also, pretty sure that DexCool will clean your engine well, in a very unhealthy manner. (Cheesclothed the oil and filter contents... no metal specks etc ...Phew. Can't speak for the bearings, though.)

-There were a bunch of mechanics who worked on it over the 3 weeks. But there was one who heard a squeak in the accessory pulleys/belt. He replaced the tensioner and serpentine. Unfortunately he guessed wrong , because I'm sure it'* the steering pump. But from what I read that was a pretty good guess, because often steering pumps are blamed for what is really a tensioner problem. So, at least,they have one person who'* trying. Maybe at most.
charliemax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2006, 02:22 AM   #59
Member
Posts like a V-Tak
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
chipinnc is on a distinguished road
Default No Coolant in the oil.

There could be another reason for the lack of evidence of coolant in the oil... There was no coolant in the oil.

I had a UIM failure in mine, also a 1996 SSE (K) w/ ~80K miles. It had been loosing coolant for some time and I couldn't find it and I didn't read this forum to know what was happening. There was never oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil.

Well, we were flying on the highway when the "failure" happened. I've been told that it would have normally hydro locked the engine. Luckily (I guess) we were going so fast that it didn't lock the engine, it over pressurized due to the coolant entering the combustion chamber and we blew a head gasket. After the loss of power, and the exhaust gas going into the coolant and temps climbing, I stopped and checked it out. What I found was extremely hot radiator under a ton of pressure. After I let it cool down I looked at the coolant. The coolant was brown / grey and flecks of some sort all through it.

Bottom line, there was never any coolant in my oil, except some that leaked when pulling out the LIM. The LIM did have some pretty well destroyed gaskets, and the guys looking at the heads when I had them cleaned and a valve job done, (Nothing else was wrong w/ them) said I was lucky everything happened the way it did. I put the details in another thread here.

After the work, I changed the oil, waited three days, changed it again, and one week later changed it a third time (This time full synthetic). It kept getting dirty quickly.

Over a six weeks and 3K miles later, it'* still running super strong. Thanks to folks here!

I wish you luck with your situation. It'* tough dealing with evil dealers.
chipinnc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2006, 05:16 AM   #60
Senior Member
Posts like a Camaro
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 857
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bugsi is on a distinguished road
Default

My tensioner pulley went this summer. In my case, my AC had gone out, my shop recharged it, tested for leaks, found none, and declared it fixed. Two weeks later when my AC was out again, they checked for leaks and diagnosed my AC compressor as the only source of leaking. I didn't have time to get it fixed just then, so I didn't get it fixed. A few weeks later my tensioner was squealing, but I stupidly just presumed it was my known-to-be-leaking AC compressor. So I scheduled it to be replaced, and one day before my appointment, the tensioner bearing seized on my way home from work. The belt shredded and when it did it ripped through part of the power steering pump. I wound up getting a new AC compressor, tensioner, belt, and PS pump all in one fell swoop. The PS pump they put on was faulty and would produce no steering assist near full turns from a stop, so I took it back and they swapped it out with another new one, and that took care of it for good. My car had around 95000 miles on it when the tensioner went out.

Even if your tensioner wasn't failing, you might consider it decent preventive maintenance, as mine wound up costing me a few other pricey components and a bit of down-time too. I wish I'd had a clue when I heard it starting to squeal. Instead I just presumed it was my AC compressor.
Bugsi is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Car broke down after the track tonight (Final Update) TJ'sblackbonne 1992-1999 67 09-10-2007 02:26 PM
Maintence questions and general musings bjjoh General GM Chat 1 03-15-2006 10:01 PM
My insurance went down! McGrath Lounge 7 02-23-2006 07:30 PM
BMW 7 series went down DrJay General GM Chat 4 04-01-2003 12:30 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:53 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.