The plot sickens. They called me to tell me the car wasn't ready because they found out at the end the day, that I need a new ICM. This means they are not out of missfire-stalling-cutout-land. Guess the gunk on the sparkplug wasn't the problem.

Of course i have no idea what DTC they are getting, but i guess they decided to go the electrical route. Browsing the FSM Diagnostics, i would be suprised if they know how many directions a "miss" can take them. i have never had the slightest problem with the ignition system.... ICM, coils, wires, plugs.. everything excellent until this coolant loss problem. Oh, i forgot, there is no coolant problem.

I'm trying to make jest of this, but I know it'* pucker time. The stakes are real high now. They are going to try to push the car out the door any way they can and outlast me for the final 200 miles of the warranty.

I hear ya, guys.This thing goes directly from them to a dealer. If it makes it.

edit: Bugsi, reread your thoughtful piece. I'm real close to being completely sure that in PA, cases of fraud (intentional hoodwinking) involving an auto... I can also claim for my legal costs. Which means a lawyer might take it on for settlement.

I really feel for you. I certainly would be beyond fumming at this point All i can really suggest is to document everything related to this car right down to everything that was said and when (date and time) it was said. Write it all down, judges love well documented cases.

Picked up the car last night at Saturn. Got 30 miles to home. Coolant looked OK, by the small 30 mile sample.

Headed to the second opinion Pontiac dealer this morning. Starts missing. Check Engine light, TC OFF light. I'm off the road right away. Tow to the second opinion Pontiac dealer.

I told you in my prior post "If I make it". I was hoping I was kidding. Guess not.

By now I might have the only '96 SSE that looks like it just rolled off the assembly line. But has a completely destroyed engine.

Aww that sucks!
Did you even look to see if there was any coolant or if it went into the oil?

Yep. All coolant was gone from the expansion tank. That took place in about 9 miles. I changed my oil about a month ago, it'* a mite cloudy but not real chocolate milky, yet. These extreme losses have only been going off and on for 2 weeks and I don't know if that'* enough to show up definitely in the oil.

I lost the UIM gasket and manifold in my '95. Extra white in exhaust, white deposits on tail tips, unusual amount of white burn on the plugs. That'* what tipped me before. I would like to be able to test for the "sweet" smell, but my smeller doesn't work . I have to taste it.

I try to dab ethyline glycol in my mouth as seldom as possible.

Well now you know your Saturn dealer is definatly full of poop.

Would it make you feel better if I said we had an eerily similar experience with a Subaru dealer down here?

You could always try what a friend of mine did in a similar situation. He had his neighbor dress up in a suit, and go with him. He then introduced his neighbor as his lawyer, and said that he was just there to take notes during the meeting. The neighbor never said a word, but the meeting took on a whole new tone.

I think he'* on the road to getting it taken care of. The Pontiac dealer will hopefully diagnose it correctly, and give him a big, fat, monster estimate for fixing it properly. At that point, he has everthing he should need. I just don't see how his Saturn dealer can try to continue saying there is no coolant leak and that his manifold gaskets are fine, when he'* holding a Pontiac dealer work estimate that says they're wrong. At that point, I think he ought to seriously argue that the Saturn dealership should actually pay the Pontiac dealer to fix it right, since they've had (lost count of the number of times they said they fixed it) and continued to miss the obvious big huge monster problem that'* been sitting in front of their noses each time it has been in. If not, I'd say to not put another mile on the car and go directly to small claims court and ask the Saturn dealership for the costs that the Pontiac dealer wants to fix it right, plus all the costs for towing and paying the Pontiac dealer for their accurate estimate. Any small claims court judge/referee should award this claim.

The way I see it, the Saturn dealership should JUMP at the chance to pay for fixing this once, instead of the many times they've fixed all sorts of other things OTHER than what was wrong. I mean, it should be cheaper, right? I mean, what good is a warranty if the people doing the warranty work don't actually know how to fix a car? Seems like they'd go out of business just trying to do warranty work if this is an indicator of how things go.

I really don't think they left him any choice, either. If you have a warranty, but the warranty people can't figure out how to fix your problem, you just have to go take it to someone who can. A car is a big investment and one of the reasons they give you a warranty in the first place is to give you a peace of mind that you won't be paying a hefty repair bill shortly after buying your used car. It'* their obligation to check the car out thoroughly if they're going to give it a warranty. This is precisely the thing your warranty is supposed to protect you from; buying a used car that is quietly slurping on engine coolant. The right thing for the Saturn dealer to do in the first place was to replace the manifold gaskets and the upper intake. Doing pretty much anything else is just wasting everyone'* time. It looks like they aren't even familiar with the 3800 series 2 N/A intake problems. At this point, just get it to someone who is. I'm sure the Pontiac dealer has seen hundreds, perhaps thousands of them.

My wife and I recently went through something similar with our child. He'* almost two, and he would throw up about twice a day, to the point where he lost two pounds in a month. After many visits for this to his pediatrician over the course of a year, she told us at various times that it was normal, he must be lactose intolerant, we must be force-feeding him, and he must have gastric reflux. (Despite continuing to throw up after taking him off dairy products.) After I saw that she prescribed him Zantac, saying that'* all he needed, I took him directly to a gastroenterologist. Turns out he has an inguinal hernia that his pediatrician somehow missed, and he has Celiac Disease, which is allergy to gluten in wheat. It took putting him under with intubation and an endoscopy of his esophogus, stomach, and small intestine, with a biopsy of a sample of the small intestine to make a positive diagnosis for Celiac Disease. After taking him off gluten, he'* miraculously no longer throwing up, and he has surgery for the hernia in four days. When your mechanic isn't doing their job for whatever reason (either they don't know how, or they don't want to, we can't be sure which it is apparently), you just need to go to a better mechanic.

I didn't mean to derail the thread, but I'm pretty sure I was dealing with all of this when I recommended he go to a Pontiac dealer. The two situations are amazingly similar!

You certainly can turn a phrase. Very succintly put.

It helps. Not that i would wish this on anybody else. what I don't understand is that I approached this whole thing as a group effort to avoid extreme damage that would cost me time, compromise the integrity of the engine in the long term, and cost them a considerable extra amount of money. The more I dealt with them, the more it became clear they considered the situation adversarial.

i don't want to misrepresent anything, but I should have had someone with me on Wednesday to witness the discussion. That hour was a critical discussion. Any recount of it would be a "he said, she said" contest.

There is already precedent for this with the car. They couldn't figure out a wierd starting problem, so they sent it over to a nearby Pontiac dealer. They figured it out in a couple of days. But all told, my car was in service for 2 weeks. they probably already had an existing relationship with that Pontiac dealer.

They completely dismissed information re: the L36 that I gave them. Even though it is fundamental common knowlege here.

You didn't derail the thread. I put the thread in Gen Chat because i felt the real issues were not technical, but ones of buying a used Bonneville and dealing with the warranty/dealer. Actually, your account snapped things into perspective for me.

I was moping around yesterday, poor me. Another day spent waiting for tow etc, second major breakdown/assault on the engine, and probably a miserable day tomorrow when I get the diagnosis and begin the negotiations. Losing this car for most of the past 2 weeks has been a timed Perfect Storm for my wife and I. The very first day I took her car in, my wife started a new job. I am at a critical point in an IT contract project. She works 20 miles east of home, and i work 20 miles south of home. With one car, each day is "strategic planning" for travel. Our days end up starting at 5:30 AM and getting home at 7-8 PM.

Truth be told, my car issues don't amount to a hill of beans compared to what you must be going through with your child. And i should keep in perspective that which is important, and that which is just trivial bad fortune over a stupid car.

Our very best wishes that everything works out with your son. I'm sure it will.