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Forced Induction All questions and problems regarding Superchargers, Turbos, NOS, ZEX, intercoolers, water injection, etc.

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Old 08-04-2003, 02:52 PM   #21
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also the ones running 11'* are running series 2 motors and are company backed too.
hmmmm...which company is ED Morad backed by? Or John T? I am pretty sure Digital Ken isn't company backed either, although I could be wrong there. They are in the 11'*, and I don't see anybody handing money to them. Besides the fact that there are PLENTY of people in the low-mid 12'* that aren't company backed at all too.

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The general idea behind boosting an engine is to get the MOST cfm you possible can into the cylinders, not to raise the pressure. The pressure is just the side effect from FORCING the air into the engine. So, you MAY get more boost when it is humid out, but you are NOT getting more power.
Exactly. If your engine had infinite flow, you wouldn't have boost. That is why when you open up your exhaust the boost goes down, because the engine is flowing better. It is still getting the same amount of air (or more), but there is less boost because the air isn't backing up in the intake manifold.

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On a side note. Wanna know how people run 11'* with less boost. They have the intake MUCH freer flowing and the exhaust side too. As I stated before, its all about CFM, not pressure. Its also a LOT about the intake charge temp. Sure, you may feel cool running 17psi, but I am willing to get your car is pulling the timing, or better yet, knocking like there is no tomorrow.
Yup. They have big cams, free flowing intakes, and free flowing exhausts. Because of this, their blowers are moving the same amount of air (or more) as someone making 15 or 17psi, but they are getting less boost because the air is flowing through the engine and not backing up in the intake manifold. This is the exact reason why Ed Morad (runs 11'*) is using a 2.6" Pulley on his M90 and making 12psi boost, while we are making 15psi boost with a 2.6" Pulley on our M90. Ed Morad has a big cam, ported & polished heads, and a more free flowing exhaust, while we are running the stock cam with 1.9 rocker arms, and stock heads, and an exhaust that doesn't flow quite as well.

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Oh, and one more thing. Just because an engine states it has "forged internals", does NOT mean it is indestructable. There are many different levels of forged internals, and from my experience and research, they are not all created equally. All Ford 5.0'* have forged internals, but try running 15+psi of boost on them, or a 200 shot of juice and see what you end up with.
Yup. The stock pistons and all the other forged parts in an L67 are not indestructible. Yeah, they are stronger than the L27 or L36 pistons, but they are still breakable. That is why people that are running low 12'*, and 11'* have aftermarket forged pistons. The stock pistons are nothing special and will break plenty easy when running high amounts of boost, or a lot of timing.
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Old 08-04-2003, 03:33 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by jeffrey10x2
ok, very true that the intercooler is the best way to go. and yes it is restrictive. but no one makes any of the series 1 motors. the water/alcohol injection is to do 2 things. it cools the air intake charge at the SC and also drops the combustion chamber temps conciderably which helps a ton with detonation, and yes , there are some runnig 11'* out there too and not running 17 psi of boost. but it takes more than a motor to make a car run 11'* . i bet right now if i just had a LSD, mine would be in the 13'*. but no one makes it for a 4T60E HD. tires have alot to do with it too. see, most of us dont have a company standing behind up with an open wallet. we do this as a hobby and with series 1 owners, we have to use our imagination to find diferent ways to make power and get it to the ground.
as far as the internals go. a little over a year ago, i took a NT talon 2.0 and added a small 16 G turbo to it, and a 50 shot wet NOS sytem to it too. and nothing happened to the insides at all. i do monitor my KR with a scan tool when i race. i just dont fly by the seat of my pants. if something doesnt work i try, i post it. and if it does, i post it too.
so for as far as im concerned, anyone that wants to help with the series 1 development part, feel free,
also the ones running 11'* are running series 2 motors and are company backed too.

You put a 16G on a non-turbo talon? How much boost were you runnnig? I have extensive knowledge of talons (and other mitsubishi cars). I am interested to hear what you did to the engine.

Either way, I understand where you are coming from in terms of the money issue. Although many of the people ripping 11'* are sponsored, I have seen many GTPs running 12'* (low 12'* even) on the drivers money. Yes, in order to make a car run 11'* or 12'*, it does require a good amount of money, especially with the platform you chose. Don't get me wrong, the water / alcohol route is the cheap route, and it does help. The thing to realize is, there are shops out there that will help you. If you get to know enough people, you would eb surprised how many things you could get done for cheap. I am currently working with a few local shops for both of my cars. The H-body is going to have to stay stock for now. My stealth is of higher priority, but once it breaks 9'* next summer, I will move on to my Olds. I think I am going to go the same route as Scott and turbo my car. It will all be out of pocket for me, but I have made a lot of friends, so cost shouldnt be insane.
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Old 08-06-2003, 07:38 PM   #23
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the only thing i did to the 4G63 talon motor was wires, zex plugs, and a new timing belt.
i was getting 14 psi of boost with it. it ran great. i ran it for like 9 months with it and then sold the car to get my bonneville.
also, dbtk2
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hmmmm...which company is ED Morad backed by? Or John T? I am pretty sure Digital Ken isn't company backed either, although I could be wrong there. They are in the 11'*, and I don't see anybody handing money to them. Besides the fact that there are PLENTY of people in the low-mid 12'* that aren't company backed at all too.
i want you to tell me just how many of them are running a series 1
and digital ken works for zzp dahhhhhhhhh

i have talked to chris white from high performance pontiac. he told me that he can count on one finger just how many series 1 motors he has seen without nitrous even get into the 14'*.
 
Old 08-06-2003, 07:47 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jeffrey10x2
the only thing i did to the 4G63 talon motor was wires, zex plugs, and a new timing belt.
i was getting 14 psi of boost with it. it ran great. i ran it for like 9 months with it and then sold the car to get my bonneville.
Why did you only push 14psi on an upgraded turbo? A stock 14B turbo will easy push 15psi... Just curious.
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Old 08-06-2003, 08:18 PM   #25
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i had the blow off valve set to do that. over that , i ran into detonation
 
Old 08-06-2003, 08:24 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jeffrey10x2
i had the blow off valve set to do that. over that , i ran into detonation
Blow off valve doesnt control boost, a boost controller or waste gate does. You probably didnt have enough fuel (injectors) to handle the boost. Easy enough fix thought. With an aftermarket fuel controller ($300), you can set the injectors to over 100% duty cycle.
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Old 08-07-2003, 07:53 PM   #27
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the blow off valve was adjustable, at anything over 14 psi, it dumped it back into the intake tube. my wastegate was set too with a manual boost controller along with the blow off valve
 
Old 08-07-2003, 08:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jeffrey10x2
the blow off valve was adjustable, at anything over 14 psi, it dumped it back into the intake tube. my wastegate was set too with a manual boost controller along with the blow off valve
The blow-off valve only triggers off the throttle... It is meant to bleed boost when you are shifting, or when you left off the throttle (more of less when the throttlebody closes). Either way, with stock injectors, 14psi was probably a safe level. Thats pretty cool. At least I am not the only mitsu person on these forums... LOL
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Old 08-07-2003, 10:57 PM   #29
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Umm, just to clear something up. When you run water injection the density of the air increases.

When a gas gets cooler it will become more dense. But it'* volume also decreases. Put a ballon in the fridge, and you'll see what i mean. So if you blow cold air into a ballon it can hold more air than if you put in hot air. Water Injection works the same way. Put your hand in some water and take your hand out, it feels cool right? Well it'* trying to get the heat into equilibrium. When it is introduced to air it will take some of the heat from the air. Decreasing volume and increasing density. If you do this before the throttle body and SC, you can keep the density up and the overall temperature down. So yes, you do get more air in from water injection.

You introduce more o2 into the cylinder'* with the same ammount of CFM. More 02 in the cylinder means you can introduce more fuel and you get more power.

Boost probably increases in our cars because the lower intake gets full because the cylinders can't take it all in.
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Old 08-07-2003, 11:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bassplayincrowe
Umm, just to clear something up. When you run water injection the density of the air increases.

When a gas gets cooler it will become more dense. But it'* volume also decreases. Put a ballon in the fridge, and you'll see what i mean. So if you blow cold air into a ballon it can hold more air than if you put in hot air. Water Injection works the same way. Put your hand in some water and take your hand out, it feels cool right? Well it'* trying to get the heat into equilibrium. When it is introduced to air it will take some of the heat from the air. Decreasing volume and increasing density. If you do this before the throttle body and SC, you can keep the density up and the overall temperature down. So yes, you do get more air in from water injection.

You introduce more o2 into the cyl'* with the same ammount of CFM. More 02 in the cyl means you can introduce more fuel and you get more power.

I hate to break this to you, but you are wrong. If you add COLD water the air will be more dense, but, humid air is less dense then dry air. That is why people always bitch about humid weather conditions when they run at the track. But, water injection DOES cool the air, which does make it more dense... It all depends what temp the water is. If you can keep the water quite cool (with ice), then it is beneficial. If it is hot, like the engine, it is a toss up whether it will be beneficial or not. So, when you take a few more chemistry classes, come back and talk to me... LOL. Not trying to start ****, but don't say something unless you KNOW it to be true.
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