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Forced Induction All questions and problems regarding Superchargers, Turbos, NOS, ZEX, intercoolers, water injection, etc.

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Old 07-24-2003, 11:02 PM   #11
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I wonder if my pulley will prevent me from seeing a boost increase with the W/A injection now? Sumthin' to think about.

You may consider running your injection on the way to the track. The PCM won't respond fast enough to the increased air density quick enough at the track. You'll see better results.
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:23 PM   #12
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As a point of comparison, my water alcohol injection gave me an additional 2 psi of boost with the stock pulley last summer. How much boost did you gain when you installed it on the GTP? That might be a starting point for the comparison. BTW, that was WITHOUT alcohol. Just water injection.
I don't know how a water injection system could increase boost. It doesn't compress anything so that doesn't make any sense. It makes sense that it would allow you to run a smaller pulley to make more boost, but not it making more boost itself. Are you sure??? The intercooler itself doesn't increase boost (I actually think it decreases boost because the core is a restriction if I remember correctly), you have to run a smaller pulley to get an increase in boost. We went from 10.8psi boost without the intercooler, to the current 14.3psi on the street and 14.96psi at the track because of the smaller pulley size it allowed us to run. (2.7" pulley on the street, 2.6" at the track)

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stock Sc motors come with forged steel rods, steel crank and forged pistons.
Yes, I know. I believe I said that in my post.

Quote:
i have 110 lb vlave springs installed too.
Yes, i also know this, but that doesn't help reduce detonation, just helps to reduce high rpm valve float.

Quote:
all the incoming air is through the opening where the left front headlight was. the air box and intake tube is fully insulated. just by doing the insulation, it cut my intake air temp by 40* .
there is absolutely NO air going into the TB from the engine bay. all is from outside the car and i also made a heat shield for the TB to protect it from the crossover pipe.
We have basically that exact same setup on the GTP. Insulated cold air intake, insulated intake duct, ceramic & metallic coated headers, ZZP crossover heat sheild. The intake air temp is always within 6* of ambient temps, but usally within 3*.

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dbtk2, the only REAL difference between the M90 and the M62 is the CFM rating. At 90CFM per revolution, the M90 on your Dad'* car doesn't have to spin at the same rpm level as the M62 to produce the same boost. This means that the M62 produces more heat because it has to spin faster. How much more heat? Beats me, but we could probably do a comparison between them sometime.

So the M62 has a smaller pulley to fill the greedy cylinders, where the M90 doesn't need to spin that fast.

Both are over-capable of supplying the L67.
Yes, but the increase in heat is HUGE between the 2. It is the exact reason why GTP owners upgrade to the M112, it is much more efficient. They can run more boost with lower temps. So, the M62 is going to create more heat at 17psi than an M90, therefore the M62 is going to need even more cooling to not create detonation than the M90 would.

I don't want to get into a big argument, it just seems to me like 17psi with an M62 on a Series I L67 is a lot of boost, and is liable to cause a lot of problems even if the knock is taken care of. It kind of tells you that if you made you exhaust flow better, and custom made some high ratio rockers, and/or ported your heads, or got a custom cam ground you would make a lot more power. Flow makes horsepower, so if you make the engine flow better then you don't have to run such high boost levels to make power. High boost is just asking for problems.
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Old 07-25-2003, 12:30 AM   #13
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Interesting arguments guys.
Don't get angry, we all enjoy learning from your experiences.

[/quote]i did raise the pressure switch that the water/alcohol injection kicks on, i have it set at 10 psi now. so at 10 psi and about, the injection turns on and fogs the intake charge through a NOS dry fogger nozzle with a .016" jet in it
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What pressure does your water/methanol system run at to supply the fogger nozzle?
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:16 AM   #14
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Bullet, I had mine running at 70psi. (actually, the pressure switch controlled tank pressure between 50 and 70, so when it dropped to 50, it would kick the pump on again).

dbtk, water injection can and DOES raise boost levels. It depends on the ambient temperature and humidity though. Notice the higher boost levels on a cold foggy day? You can get the same effect, but remember something about Oregon, if you remember nothing else. We have DRY heat. No humidity. This makes the effect much more noticeable than a hot humid climate. The humidity is already there to some extent.

I suppose the Mojave Desert would be the ideal environment to try this. I verified the boost improvement 3 times in a 1 hour period with my first prototype system, then again with the third system I built. It varied sometimes, but always gave me at least 1.5psi, and as much as 2.0.

I have NOT run it since the pulley upgrade. Water injection increases air density. That'* how it increases boost. There'* an article on that up in Techinfo. A good physics book can explain it better. College physics was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:57 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbtk2
. It is the exact reason why GTP owners upgrade to the M112, it is much more efficient. They can run more boost with lower temps.
this true?? more info please.. hee hee.. more boost.. how would enginen and pcm handle this? How much would it cost?
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:31 AM   #16
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this true?? more info please.. hee hee.. more boost.. how would enginen and pcm handle this? How much would it cost?
Oh, believe me, you don't want to pay for it, but some ClubGP members have been crazy enough to do it in the past. The cost of the kit is $1,999.99, plus $40 shipping. You can get the information from intense-racing.com, then go to induction/fuel system, and it should be on the bottom, but here it is for you anyways.

Quoted directly from www.intense-racing.com:

INTENSE™ MP112 Supercharger Conversion Kit

APPLICATIONS:
1996-2004 Bonneville SSEi with L67 (supercharged) engine
1997-2003 Grand Prix GTP with L67 (supercharged) engine
1997-2003 Grand Prix GTX with L67 (supercharged) engine
2004 Impala SS with L67 (supercharged) engine
1996-1999 LeSabre with L67 (supercharged) engine
2004 Monte Carlo SS with L67 (supercharged) engine
1996-2004 Park Avenue Ultra with L67 (supercharged) engine
1996-2004 Regal GS (supercharged) with L67 (supercharged) engine
1996-2004 other applications with L67 (supercharged) engines
Want your L67 to make 500 horsepower? This kit will replace the factory third generation M90 supercharger on L67 engines with a unit 24% larger than stock and much more efficient. This new fifth generation blower combines *-porting technology and the rotors feature a new abradable* coating, which actually 'wears in' - increasing volumetric efficiency to 99%! This supercharger can provide 20 psi (or more) of boost to 3800 Series II engines.

Our prototype kits have been installed on two test cars since early 2002 and both of them are running in the elevens with race weights of approximately 3,700 pounds! (Scott Murray and John Tsimaras) We believe this kit will eventually permit ten second FWD passes with serious race preparation and weight reduction, or some nitrous oxide.

You should already have modified induction and exhaust before you even begin to consider this conversion. You'll need to purchase a ZZP Custom Intercooler and ZZP Custom LS1 Throttle Body and 85 mm. MAF Sensor Kit. Nothing else will be required - but an aftermarket cam, heads, fuel injectors and custom PCM will allow you to truly maximize this setup.

For pictures of our prototype INTENSE™ MP112 Supercharger Conversion Kits please Click Here. Those images are more than a year old, and the final production kit provides for a substantially cleaner installation.

The INTENSE™ MP112 Supercharger Conversion Kit includes a fifth generation *-ported MP112 supercharger with integral boost bypass valve and abradable coating on the rotors. In addition, a custom keyed snout is provided, in addition to a 3.40" supercharger pulley (roughly equivalent to a 2.75" M90 pulley), which we recommend for use with pump gas. Mounting hardware is included to facilitate perfect mating with the ZZP Custom Intercooler and ZZP Custom LS1 Throttle Body. Also included is a custom snout support, and you'll need to fabricate your own simple bracketry to hold it in the proper position. Vacuum hose routing changes will also need to be made at time of installation, and will vary depending on the exact year, make and model of your car.

We're taking pre-orders on these kits at this time. Orders should ship during the month of September (possibly August, but we always try to underpromise and overdeliver). Once the kits become available, we'll ship on a first paid, first shipped basis.

Sorry, but we won't be held responsible for the damage this kit does to your transaxle, your tires and your competition!

IMPORTANT NOTES:

* - Due to the new abradable rotor coating, no form of water or alcohol injection can be used before this supercharger. If you must inject, do it via direct port, after the blower.

- We recommend your INTENSE™ MP112 Supercharger Conversion Kit be installed by a competent professional.

- The INTENSE™ MP112 Supercharger Conversion Kit is warranted for a period of ninety (90) days from the date of purchase against defects in materials and workmanship. The warranty provides for replacement components only, and does not cover labor or any other costs. Purchaser and Installer assume all liability with regard to any and all damages in any way related to the purchase, installation and/or use of these components.
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Old 07-25-2003, 06:55 AM   #17
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im running 40 psi to the fogger nozzle. i also have a valve system to fine tune it for max flox but no water bog when activated . i did have the boost pressure switch set at 3.5 psi. now i have it set at 10 psi.
 
Old 08-04-2003, 05:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Bullet, I had mine running at 70psi. (actually, the pressure switch controlled tank pressure between 50 and 70, so when it dropped to 50, it would kick the pump on again).

dbtk, water injection can and DOES raise boost levels. It depends on the ambient temperature and humidity though. Notice the higher boost levels on a cold foggy day? You can get the same effect, but remember something about Oregon, if you remember nothing else. We have DRY heat. No humidity. This makes the effect much more noticeable than a hot humid climate. The humidity is already there to some extent.

I suppose the Mojave Desert would be the ideal environment to try this. I verified the boost improvement 3 times in a 1 hour period with my first prototype system, then again with the third system I built. It varied sometimes, but always gave me at least 1.5psi, and as much as 2.0.

I have NOT run it since the pulley upgrade. Water injection increases air density. That'* how it increases boost. There'* an article on that up in Techinfo. A good physics book can explain it better. College physics was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

Most likely useless boost though. As was stated before, running with the intercooler creates more boost too, but it isnt boost you want. The general idea behind boosting an engine is to get the MOST cfm you possible can into the cylinders, not to raise the pressure. The pressure is just the side effect from FORCING the air into the engine. So, you MAY get more boost when it is humid out, but you are NOT getting more power.

The reason for water / alcohol injection is to cool the intake charge. You want to go more extreme? Try propane. Not only does it lower the intake charge MUCH more then water / alcohol ever could, but it also is a higher octane then pump gas.

I am going to agree with what someone else stated, and say that the intercooler is the best bet. Yes, it is expensive, but if you want to play, you have to pay.

On a side note. Wanna know how people run 11'* with less boost. They have the intake MUCH freer flowing and the exhaust side too. As I stated before, its all about CFM, not pressure. Its also a LOT about the intake charge temp. Sure, you may feel cool running 17psi, but I am willing to get your car is pulling the timing, or better yet, knocking like there is no tomorrow.

Oh, and one more thing. Just because an engine states it has "forged internals", does NOT mean it is indestructable. There are many different levels of forged internals, and from my experience and research, they are not all created equally. All Ford 5.0'* have forged internals, but try running 15+psi of boost on them, or a 200 shot of juice and see what you end up with.

Just trying to educate everyone.... If you feel like picking apart my arguements, feel free.
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Old 08-04-2003, 07:10 AM   #19
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ok, very true that the intercooler is the best way to go. and yes it is restrictive. but no one makes any of the series 1 motors. the water/alcohol injection is to do 2 things. it cools the air intake charge at the SC and also drops the combustion chamber temps conciderably which helps a ton with detonation, and yes , there are some runnig 11'* out there too and not running 17 psi of boost. but it takes more than a motor to make a car run 11'* . i bet right now if i just had a LSD, mine would be in the 13'*. but no one makes it for a 4T60E HD. tires have alot to do with it too. see, most of us dont have a company standing behind up with an open wallet. we do this as a hobby and with series 1 owners, we have to use our imagination to find diferent ways to make power and get it to the ground.
as far as the internals go. a little over a year ago, i took a NT talon 2.0 and added a small 16 G turbo to it, and a 50 shot wet NOS sytem to it too. and nothing happened to the insides at all. i do monitor my KR with a scan tool when i race. i just dont fly by the seat of my pants. if something doesnt work i try, i post it. and if it does, i post it too.
so for as far as im concerned, anyone that wants to help with the series 1 development part, feel free,
also the ones running 11'* are running series 2 motors and are company backed too.
 
Old 08-04-2003, 10:54 AM   #20
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also the ones running 11'* are running series 2 motors and are company backed too.
EXCELLENT POINT. Totally true. Scott Cook at Intense comes to mind. Unless you have that resource, the average joe won't get anywhere near those kinds of numbers.
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