Stock PCM and KR with 0 Knock Sensor Count - Is this TQM? - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 04-08-2004, 01:14 PM   #1
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Default Stock PCM and KR with 0 Knock Sensor Count - Is this TQM?

I have autotaped my 2002 SSEi a bunch of times. The results are always similar. I get 0-2 KR with occasional spikes of 3-4 - usually at a shift point. However, the knock sensor count is zero. My understanding is this means no actual knock is detected. The KR will often actually go down as RPM increases, or fluctuate slightly.

I have observed the same behavior with intake temps ranging from 40 degrees to 140 degrees - with outside temps between 30 and 90. The KR has actually gone down while intake temps increased.

My A/F at WOT is usually between 11-12 at WOT. My boost is right around 10lbs. My timing ranges between 6-10 at WOT. I run only Sunoco ultra 94.

The car has a 3.25 pulley, Thasher CAI, TOG headers, SLP 1.8 alluminum roller rockers + lightweight pushrods, and TOG flexpipe in place of down pipe. I am running stock plugs.

The only time i get any actual knock count is some times right at let off or a shift change. This has actually been occuring even less as of late. I suspect this is false knock being learned out.
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Old 04-08-2004, 01:38 PM   #2
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I think that first of all you need to be running colder spark plugs - either 1 or more likely 2 heat ranges colder than stock.

Have you looked at the plugs recently? I'm surprised you haven't fried a plug yet with all those mods you have.

Cheers,
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Old 04-08-2004, 04:12 PM   #3
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I guess you joined the club heh, im assuming your same nic on clubgp? See my email to your questions.
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Old 04-08-2004, 05:11 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
I guess you joined the club heh, im assuming your same nic on clubgp? See my email to your questions.
I have same name on clubgp too. I saw your email, and will reply!

Thanks,
Anthony
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Old 04-08-2004, 05:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetracer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue
I guess you joined the club heh, im assuming your same nic on clubgp? See my email to your questions.
I have same name on clubgp too. I saw your email, and will reply!

Thanks,
Anthony
My screen name on clubgp is actually gtpstreetracer.
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Old 04-09-2004, 06:35 PM   #6
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What are your O2 readings? What spark plugs are you using now?
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Old 04-09-2004, 08:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacDad
What are your O2 readings? What spark plugs are you using now?
I will tap to get o2 readings this weekend. I am running stock plugs. I just ordered 2 range colder plugs - pre gapped, along with some TORCO race gas concentrate.

I stayed with stock plus until now - due to not doing a lot of sustained WOT driving, and wanting to avoiding fouling plugs.

I usually autotap by starting a log at start-up and then driving the car around doing WOT runs between different speeds and in different gears with cool down periods in between.

What is the best way to pull out just the WOT runs from the log?

I am thinking about exporting to a spreadsheet and then copying and pasting the rows for each run into different sheets in a seperate workbook.
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Old 04-09-2004, 09:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetracer
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacDad
What are your O2 readings? What spark plugs are you using now?
I will tap to get o2 readings this weekend. I am running stock plugs. I just ordered 2 range colder plugs - pre gapped, along with some TORCO race gas concentrate.

I stayed with stock plus until now - due to not doing a lot of sustained WOT driving, and wanting to avoiding fouling plugs.

I usually autotap by starting a log at start-up and then driving the car around doing WOT runs between different speeds and in different gears with cool down periods in between.

What is the best way to pull out just the WOT runs from the log?
Thats pretty much what i do, export to csv open in excel and modify
I am thinking about exporting to a spreadsheet and then copying and pasting the rows for each run into different sheets in a seperate workbook.
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Old 04-10-2004, 03:45 AM   #9
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I autotaped the car again tonight - and logged additional parameters including 02 for banks one and two in MV, short/long term fuel trim, and injector pulse width.
Here is a summary of the night and some details on the most interesting runs.

I did 2 series of runs. The first was with a 1/4 tank of Sunoco ultra 94. The second set was with a full tank of 100 octane Sunoco race gas.

The race gas cost $70 for a full tank, but that is a lot cheaper then potential damage from kr or pre-ignition. My brother just blew the piston in his GTP and we are having the guys at Dynotech rebuild it with Intense parts. We think he got fuel starved at the speed limiter after heat soaking the engine. An intense PCM may have saved him - if he had one. I also got amazingly good highway mileage with the race gas - even with lots of WOT driving. I can't wait for my torco to get here - 104 octane and a lot less money!

I had a zero knock sensor count for most of all of the runs - both with 94 octane pump gas and 100 octane race gas. The one exception was one at a shift point and throttle let off at high rpm.

I had my usual spike of KRs with pump gas - although for some reason tonight these were considerably higher than usual. My highest spike is usually 3-4 degrees, and most times its fluctuates between 0-2 degrees and often decreases as rpm goes up - even with 140 intake temps on a 90 degree day.

My spikes tonight were 5.4, 5.7, 7.6, 9.3 on pump gas - with zero knock sensor count. I usually do my runs in drive with traction control on. The runs where these high spikes occurred with the car manually in gear and tcs off at high rpm. I may do more runs tomorrow like this with the race gas to make a better comparison.

I think i need to do this not only to isolate effects of TCS or gear selection - but also to get the car into the very top of the RPM band and for longer periods of WOT. This is where KR showed up most with pump gas, so this is where want to look for big differences with race gas.

My second pump gas run was from 30MPH to 75MPH at 4734RPM in 2nd gear. I did this with the car manually in second and traction control off. There was zero knock sensor count until end of run. The AF was between 11.6 and 11.9. The O2s were between 920 to 945 for bank one and between 890 to 900 for bank two.

The car automatically downshifted to 1st gear and upshifted to 2nd at 5126RPM. There was spike of 2.1 degrees of knock right before the 1-2 upshift. There was a spike to 5.7* KR right after the 1-2 upshift. The KR then went down to 4.4 at 4191 RPM in 2nd gear. The KR ticked up to 4.6 then backdown to 4.5 before spiking to 5.7 right at throttle let off and the resulting 2-3 upshift.

My third pump gas run was from 50MPH to 96MPH at 5747RPM in 2nd gear. I did this with the car manually in second and traction control off. There was zero knock sensor count. The AF was 11.3. The 02s were for 915 bank one and 900 for bank two.

The KR started at 0* up to 4800RPM and then spiked to 3.3*, jumped to 4.0*, came back down to 2.8*, and jumped back up to 3.8*.

The car then spiked to 7.6% right at the 2-3 upshift at 5747RPM, and spiked again to 9.3* at throttle let off. This was preceded by the only positive knock sensor count of the night, a high 96 instances!

Did I hit the 2nd gear rev limiter?

My first race gas run was between 54MPH and 83MPH at 5161RPM in 2nd gear. The car was in drive with TCS off. The car automatically downshifted to 2nd gear. I had 0 to .6KR throughout the run and no knock sensor count. The A/F ratio was 11.5. The 02s were 950 for bank one and 900 for bank two. The .6KR was right at the shift point.

My second race gas run was from 53MPH to 79MPH at 4892RPM in 2nd gear. The car was in drive with TCS off. The car automatically downshifted to 2nd gear. There was zero knock sensor count. The A/F ratio was 11.7. The O2s were between 900 and 920 for bank one and between 860 and 910 for bank two.

My third race gas run was from 53 to 77MPH at 4803RPM in 2nd gear. The car was in drive with TCS on. The car automatically downshift to 2nd gear. There was zero knock sensor count. The A/F ratio was 11.5 . The 02s were between 900 and 930 for bank one and 880 and 900 for bank two.

The KR fluctuated between 1 and 2 for the entire run with a spike to 4.1 at let off and resulting 2-3 upshift.

My final race gas run was from 38MPH to 89MPH at 5383RPM in 2nd gear. The car was in drive with the TCS off. The car automatically downshifted to 2nd gear. There was zero knock sensor count - expect for a brief count of 8 for one record. The A/F ratio was 11.6. The 02s were between 900 and 930 for bank one and 880-890 for bank two. There was a brief spike of 1.1KR at when the 8 knock sensor count occured at an estimated 4200-4400RPM (no engine speed data for this record). The KR then went back to zero with a zero knock sensor count. The KR spiked to 1.6* at 5161rpm and ticked up to 1.9* at 5383RPM, and then spiked to 3.2 at let off and the resulting 2-3 upshift.
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Old 04-11-2004, 07:31 PM   #10
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I did another set of runs today with the rest of the race gas. I did the runs with the car manually in gear and TCS off. I would run the car to the top of each gear where possible - including 2nd gear rev limiter. I did this to a broder view of car'* behavior with the race gas and to data that was directly comparable to my most recent pump gas runs.

The results were similar spikes in KR as the pump gas runs - including spikes of 6.7 and 10.4!

This was with no knock sensor count - with a few exceptions that occured right at begining of a run or let off/gear shift. I interpreted these to be false counts from my dipstick hitting the headers or other engine compartmment sounds.

Hence, I think my car is torque management or overly conservative learning by the stock pcm. The reason the car exhibited similar KR with no knock sensor count at race gas - as it did on pump gas - WHEN DRIVEN THE SAME WAY.


The bottom line is very fast and seems to be running safely - but the PCM is holding it back.

I think it may be time for a INTENSE PCM!!!
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