New Guy with P1441 code question - Page 3 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


1992-1999 Series I L27 (1992-1994 SE,SLE, SSE) & Series II L36 (1995-1999 SE, SSE, SLE) and common problems for the Series I and II L67 (all supercharged models 92-99) Including Olds 88's, Olds LSS's and Buick Lesabres Please use General Chat for non-mechanical issues, and Performance and Brainstorming for improvements.

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Old 02-14-2006, 06:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterMitty
OK. I'll do it when I get back in to the house this evening.
To clarify, we're talking about the valve on the intake manifold, not the canister?
Is pin "B" marked somehow?
With power on I should be checking for voltage or continuity?
Yes, the solenoid valve at the upper intake. With the ignition on, pin A should have + 12 vdc. that is how you can identify pin A. Now switch the meter to read continuity and read pin B. Pin B is the negative side of the solenoid control ckt. The PCM switches the ground. If you can read continuity all the time from pin B to the chassis, that means the purge valve is always open. If pin B reads to ground with ign on, then turn the ign off and check the meter goes to infinity. Need some one with the 96-99 FSM'* schematics (Engine Electrical) to verify this. Hope some of this makes sense. Do you see where we are going with this? Is something getting a false signal?
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Old 02-14-2006, 06:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markwb
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterMitty
OK. I'll do it when I get back in to the house this evening.
To clarify, we're talking about the valve on the intake manifold, not the canister?
Is pin "B" marked somehow?
With power on I should be checking for voltage or continuity?
Yes, the solenoid valve at the upper intake. With the ignition on, pin A should have + 12 vdc. that is how you can identify pin A. Now switch the meter to read continuity and read pin B. Pin B is the negative side of the solenoid control ckt. The PCM switches the ground. If you can read continuity all the time from pin B to the chassis, that means the purge valve is always open. If pin B reads to ground with ign on, then turn the ign off and check the meter goes to infinity. Need some one with the 96-99 FSM'* schematics (Engine Electrical) to verify this. Hope some of this makes sense. Do you see where we are going with this? Is something getting a false signal?
I understand the checks electrically, but I don't know the logic (programming) behind the function.

Do you know if it will show an error code when it sees that the solenoid is absent from the curcuit? Previously, when I was checking for voltage at the solenoid I think I caused a P1665 or 1676 IIRC, but I wasn't checking for ground. Once that code was cleared it did not return, but I haven't been in the ign on condition with the solenoids out of the curcuits since then.

I see where you're headed, but I'll be derned if I can see the point of the system for the function of the car. I mean, when you look at the list of things that WILL light the light and the list of things that don't, this item is clearly on the wrong list.

A little later....

No continuity to ground on pin "B" (it is clearly marked). ~12 VDC with ign switch in "run" position on pin "A" - engine not running BTW.
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:54 PM   #23
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OK. It looks like this thread is dead, but I thought I would update it one last time in case some poor stiff with a similar problem does a search and finds it. I’ll try to summarize what I think was my problem.

As I said in the first post, I bought this car from a relative that had been living with the check engine light for over 50k miles (several years). The P1441 is a minor fault that really doesn’t have much negative impact, so the motivation to fix it had been small.

Given the time frame and separation from details, it was hard for me to reconstruct the events immediately preceding the defect. It could have been a week after a tune-up or intake replacement (which this car had) or it could have been unrelated to any other work or repair.

I decided it was an independent defect. After replacing the gas cap and both solenoids in the system (about $70.00 in parts) and inspecting the vacuum lines I still had the fault. So I was contemplating dropping the gas tank and having a look at the Fuel Tank Pressure transducer. (Yuck!)

About message #8, Echo SSEi listed some info that I reviewed and decided to check. I had done everything except consider that the lines were switched at the solenoid on the intake manifold.

I will confess that I made an *****u*me* that the vacuum solenoid was simply an electric valve and that it would either be open or closed no matter which way it was plumbed up. So checking for the lines reversed sounded silly. But, since I was under there anyway…

So I took the old solenoid and did a hillbilly vacuum test on one of the outlets. No flow. Tested the other outlet. SOME FLOW!! (what the…) Took the new solenoid off and put it on the same test equipment, same result.

It turns out that there is an INLET and and OUTLET on the vacuum solenoid and if it’* hooked up backwards there’* enough vacuum in the manifold to pull enough air past the closed solenoid to trip the fault. At least on this car anyway.

When I changed the solenoids out I know I hooked them back up the same way they came out, so it is possible that the entire fault was due to someone (at a repair shop even?) reversing the lines some years ago and not realizing the mistake because it may take, depending on your driving habits, some weeks for the vacuum to overcome the resistance in the valve and the computer to call for a check and etc. I probably could have fixed the problem more than $70.00 ago if I had checked this first, but, well, look at all the fun I would have missed.

Sooooo, thanks Echo SSEi and everyone else that pitched in and helped and gave me ideas for what to fix or check. Without your help I’m certain I would have spent many more hours, and probably an expensive trip to the dealership without much guarantee that they would have found the fault either.

I smile every time I look down and see that dern light is dark.
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Old 02-21-2006, 01:11 PM   #24
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Glad you found it and thanks for posting your resulting solution. As one who has found "repair" errors before, I know the feeling you get when you find out that some professional mechanic was sloppy, or too busy, or lazy, or not paying attention and caused all that headache, but YOU fixed it!

And those of us who work on our vehicles regularly are so used to puting connectors/wires/lines/bolts back where they came from that it'* a change of focus to think maybe they were on wrong to begin with.
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Old 02-21-2006, 01:34 PM   #25
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This is interesting and I think it'* also why most of those things have different sized fittings. So usually they can't be reversed easily.
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Old 02-21-2006, 05:24 PM   #26
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So the PCM was always seeing a vacum in the EVAP system because of the swapped evap lines at the purge valve? Is that correct? Hats off to you Walter, excellent job. Thank you for the feedback post on resolving the problem.
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Old 02-21-2006, 05:50 PM   #27
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There isn't much that is better than seeing that MIL light off. Way to go on fixing the problem and a BIG thanks for following up and reporting back. SO many times, a post will appear and although a fix may have occured, it never gets reported back.

Also, I wouldn't have let your (or anyone else'*) thread die without a fight. If I am involved, I try to keep providing information if I have more to add. I was going to PM you to see if we needed to revive this one later this week. I have been buried here at work for several weeks now, and my family had me "on the run" for the past two weekends.

Who knows how those two lines got crossed, but at least you found them. Thanks again for providing the update for future clubbers with this code/issue.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markwb
So the PCM was always seeing a vacum in the EVAP system because of the swapped evap lines at the purge valve? Is that correct? Hats off to you Walter, excellent job. Thank you for the feedback post on resolving the problem.
That'* correct.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:37 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo SSEI
There isn't much that is better than seeing that MIL light off. Way to go on fixing the problem and a BIG thanks for following up and reporting back. SO many times, a post will appear and although a fix may have occured, it never gets reported back.

Also, I wouldn't have let your (or anyone else'*) thread die without a fight. If I am involved, I try to keep providing information if I have more to add. I was going to PM you to see if we needed to revive this one later this week. I have been buried here at work for several weeks now, and my family had me "on the run" for the past two weekends.

Who knows how those two lines got crossed, but at least you found them. Thanks again for providing the update for future clubbers with this code/issue.
Thanks for your help.
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