Car won't start, stall, die saga continues - Page 2 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


1992-1999 Series I L27 (1992-1994 SE,SLE, SSE) & Series II L36 (1995-1999 SE, SSE, SLE) and common problems for the Series I and II L67 (all supercharged models 92-99) Including Olds 88's, Olds LSS's and Buick Lesabres Please use General Chat for non-mechanical issues, and Performance and Brainstorming for improvements.

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Old 07-17-2004, 11:43 PM   #11
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Default Relay

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddyduddy121
I don't have the 96 manual, but the first thing I would look at is the fuel pump relay. Maybe someone can tell us the location of it...
That was replaced last week, before replacing the fuel pump with a new Walbros model. New fuel pressure regulator in December (along with the new Delco pump). New filter last week too. Another thread on this thing started at "Another Fuel Pump?", and I kind of jumped over here looking for more answers.

To Recap: (tell me if I should start another whole thread)

December 2003, intermittent starting, dying, causing a tow to the dealer for $700 in repair replacement of fuel sending unit, pump, and regulator.

That seemed to fix the problem until 2 weeks ago. It wouldn't start, left it overnight at Nate'* work, arrived in the morning with a tow truck, and it started up, but we towed it home for lack of trust in driving it.

At home, we changed the fuel pump relay, everything worked, started drove fine. The next day at work, going to lunch, it died again, but he got it started, and brought it home.

Changed the fuel pump to the Walbros, made sure all the connections were good.

Fired right up, went to the gas station to get more gas (started with 1/4 tank, now 1/2). Came back home, got in the drive way, revved it mildly, and it died. Started again for about 2 minutes, and died, never to start again.

Power is not getting to the pump (does not make a sound when key is turned on).

Power windows do not function for some reason. The front ones are down, and none of the windows respond. All the fuses were removed and tested with a digital multimeter, and were OK. All the relays were pulled and re seated to insure good connections.

It sits in the garage now and I have no clue what to do from here. I am suspicious of the Ignition switch, if one part controls the accesories like the interior lights, that is working, but no fuel pum/pressure, or windows. I DO have headlights and stereo, etc.

I also wonder about the VATS system and it'* interconnection to the aftermarket remote start and alarrm. If there is a spare key in the system, hidden under the dash, it may not be making connection for the chip. Would that not allow the pump to work? How would this relate to the windows? What is the location of the window relay, if any?

I have also read (and I have been told) that the ignition module could be the culprit, all by itself. My question (before paying the big bucks for this) would be "does this control the power to the fuel pump, independent of the VATS stsem?" If that is so, I would be most suspicious of that. What about the windows?

In this thread, " the PCM controls the fuel pump" is mentioned. Does this mean that the PCM should, or could be replaced?

I know these are a lot of questions, and I also wish I could have a few of you guys at my doorstep scratching your heads right along with me, because maybe then we could get this figured out. I honestly can't afford to take another step without a good reason, or I would have done it by now. Maybe looking at the above paragraphs all together (rather than in multiple posts and subjects) will put a different perspective on this problem for you gearheads.

I can't thank everyone enough for your advise. I need it bad.

John (for son, Nate)
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Old 07-18-2004, 11:12 PM   #12
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I don't think it'* VATS, because that only causes the car not to start. It shouldn't cause the car to shut off. Yes, the PCM controls the fuel pump relay, not the ignition control module. Is there any way for you to start testing the wiring coming from the ignition switch when the problem happens? Maybe hook up a test light?
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Old 07-21-2004, 01:00 PM   #13
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Fuel pump resistor?

Cheers,
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Old 07-23-2004, 11:17 PM   #14
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Okay, I must have sleeping on this one!! The PCM send a signal to the fuel pump relay on ignition on. The PCM will continue this signal on upon rerceipt of a ignition control module (ICM)pulse reference. If it does not receive this reference signal (from crank shaft position sensor (CPS)through ICM) it wil then stop the signal to the fuel pump relay after 2 seconds.

We have to start from square one here, ok? First off, when you turn on the key, do you hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds? Check the schreader Vv (valve) by pressing in on it with a small screw driver. Does it squirt fuel?

I cannot go any further than this right now, because I really need to know these facts for certain. It is so important to follow the basic steps to diagnostics from the beginning, especially when doing it online. I will try and see you guys through this from start to finish but please be patient and listen to what I am telling you. PM me with an email address so that I can send you diagrams. Don't worry, we'll get through this I guarantee!

Cheers
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Old 07-24-2004, 06:44 PM   #15
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Default Bonnie no start

I seem to be experiencing the same things here. Just today, after a 1 hour highway drive, went into a store, came out 15 minutes later, car started fine, put into reverse, and the car started running rough. Threw it back into park and then the car died. (Now, this happened last month, but I was able to restart immediatley) So, long story short, here is what I have found.
I can't seem to hear the fuel pump when power is turned on.
Windows will not work, nor the power locks.
Checked the valve on the fuel rail, fuel squirts out. couple times.
Getting spark, ask the wife how far the screwdriver flew!
Brand new battery.
Everything else works fine,ie radio etc
So, now the car sits at a garage 80 miles away, had to get a rental to drive back to FT Drum.

So, might I be looking at a crank sensor, or a cam sensor?
The tow truck guy seemed pretty knowladgeable about the 3800 series engines. He thinks it might be the crank sensor also.

Anyhelp would be helpful!!!
Mike
1995 Bonnie, 181,000 miles
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Old 07-24-2004, 08:27 PM   #16
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The Ignition Control Module (ICM) uses inputs from the CPS (crankshaft position sensor) and the Camshaft Position Sensor. These two inputs tells the ICM which coil to trigger and fire. It also passes this info onto the PCM to determine when to fire the injectors (sequence). If the CPS wasn't working you would not get a spark (BTW how far did the screwdriver go, it was only 50,000+volts!!). If the camshaft position sensor wasn't working you still have a 1 in 6 chance of having it start the sequence properly and run. This provides a limp-in mode for the car in the case of failure. So if you are saying that you have spark and you have fuel pressure (at the rail) the thing that we are missing is the injector pulse. What I need here are diagnostic trouble codes. Personally if the ignition control module is original, that would be what I would be leaning towards but with the price of it, I would want to be sure. Try to get the trouble codes out of it. Take it off and clean under it because they tend to sulphate and lose the ground (there is an important ground under it)

The windows and the locks not working is strange. I went over the wiring diagram and couldn't find an obvious link (powers and grounds are seperate).

Try what I have said and get back on a separate string.
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:35 PM   #17
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Oh how I wish I could get those codes!! Bonnie is located 70 miles away from here. After picking the rental car up, and meeting the tow truck driver to get the car, we went back home to get my other car(Dodge Neon) then drove back to drop off the rental and while we were at it, decided to stop by the dealership to hopefully put something over the open windows. Tough luck would have it. The dealership put the car in a fenced in area to keep vandals out. THANK GOD! Also, I had read in a previous thread that someone else was having the same issue with the windows not working. Thats why I threw that in.



Quote:
Originally Posted by A Bonnie Canuck
What I need here are diagnostic trouble codes. Personally if the ignition control module is original, that would be what I would be leaning towards but with the price of it, I would want to be sure. Try to get the trouble codes out of it. Take it off and clean under it because they tend to sulphate and lose the ground (there is an important ground under it)

The windows and the locks not working is strange. I went over the wiring diagram and couldn't find an obvious link (powers and grounds are seperate).

Try what I have said and get back on a separate string.
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Old 07-26-2004, 12:43 PM   #18
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Default Trying to get a hold of dealership

When I get a hold of the dealership where my car is at, should I tell them to just run a diagnostics on it and go from their?
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Old 07-26-2004, 06:24 PM   #19
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The dealership called today to let me know what was wrong with my car. They told me that it was the fuel pump. Grand total of about $500.00. This includes new fuel lines from the tank to the front, and a new pump.
Now, the last time I looked underneath(last month) my fuel lines were fine. Just a tint of rust and nothing more. A little research, and I found a fuel pump at Autozone for $99, and I can do it myself. Now, the hard part is getting it back up to Fort Drum from Syracuse. About 70 miles. I have access to a decent size truck to tow, but U-haul'* website isn't working correctly. Can't get a price on a tow dolly.
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Old 07-29-2004, 10:04 PM   #20
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I just put in a Bonneville PCM (Used, but good) and nothing....

I have replaced:
Fuel pump
Fuel filter
Fuel pump relay
PCM
Sending unit

I have no power to the pump. It doesn't run when you turn on the key.

At this point, it looks like Nate wants to sell it. Even if he only gets $1500. I think it'* worth more if it runs, and it'* a great car, but it'* dead on the road.

The windows won't roll up. Is there a circuit breaker? All the fuses are good. Could the problem be related to the pump? What about the ignition switch? The interior lights and locks work.

I am stumped, adn broke. The car will sit, ir be sold.

Thanks for any help!

John (for Nate)
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