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Old 01-30-2007, 11:04 PM   #11
DINOSAURUS BOOSTUS

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000SilverBullet
Do you believe Boosty is really producing 13-14 psi with a Gen 3 and 3.2 with headers and CAI?
Do you want a picture, Captain Disbelief?

I'd believe what Todd and the guys at Intense tell you about these motors. They have EXTENSIVE knowledge.
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Old 01-30-2007, 11:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Do you want a picture, Captain Disbelief?

I'd believe what Todd and the guys at Intense tell you about these motors. They have EXTENSIVE knowledge.
I have a lot of respect for INTENSE but they don't seem to have much experience with Water/Methanol injection and it'* cooling attributes.

Maybe your mech gauge reads on the high side. Is it calibrated?
What is your new Aeroforce gauge indicating?

Boosty, it would help all if you posted ALL your mods in your sig.
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Old 01-31-2007, 02:38 PM   #13
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Nothing but <3 for the Gen V

As I think I've said before Boost is not a measure of power, only manifold pressure.

A car with 13 psi and a highly modded motor flowing air very well can easily make more power than a stock restricted motor pushing 13psi. Comparing boost levels to each other is not a way to compare power output. My car only generates about 15psi.

The key is to run the most boost you can while getting 0 KR and high timing (19-20 degrees). If you run 13 psi and get 0 KR with 15 degrees, you may want to back up a pulley size (11-12 psi) bump timing up while maintaining 0 KR.

Usually but not always, 1 lb of boost removed will give you the ability to run 1-2 degrees more timing.
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Old 01-31-2007, 03:51 PM   #14
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I was running at 14 Psi with a 2.8" pulley.

As Rogue mentioned, manifold pressure is no indication of power. In fact it may indicate a particular combination doesn't breathe very well, but overall it'* not telling a lot.

Cheers,
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Old 01-31-2007, 04:50 PM   #15
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I lost almost 2 psi of boost with my PEM'* and ported LIM. As expected. That'* what I wanted to see. You know you're USING it that way. Not just storing it up for later.
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
A car with 13 psi and a highly modded motor flowing air very well can easily make more power than a stock restricted motor pushing 13psi. Comparing boost levels to each other is not a way to compare power output. My car only generates about 15psi.

The key is to run the most boost you can while getting 0 KR and high timing (19-20 degrees). If you run 13 psi and get 0 KR with 15 degrees, you may want to back up a pulley size (11-12 psi) bump timing up while maintaining 0 KR.
I am using the INTENSE PCM with 3 additional degrees of advance...so I see about 19 with 0 KR and 13 psi.
I know it'* make good power when, after the tires hook up and the revs climb above 4500 rpm, the tires break loose and still 0 KR. :P

I'll give it a bit more time to learn with the 3.3 then try out the 3.2 to see if I have enough fuel supply.
The water injection works very similar to an intercooler in keeping the intake charge at around 100 F, so I should be able to make more boost...or add more timing....but at this point without reprogramming and going with a happy ****, it'* easier to add boost to get the same effect.

The real benefit to the water injection cooling over an intercooler is NO pressure drop across a heat exchanger.

Todd - you may be producing 15 psi but before the intercooler you are probably making about 19 psi and taking a 4 lb drop across it.
That'* why guys with intercoolers HAVE to run smaller pulley'*.

So as long as I don't get any KR, the PCM is not pulling timing.
I will monitor the fuel flow and the timing to make sure.
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Old 02-01-2007, 12:29 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000SilverBullet
I'll give it a bit more time to learn with the 3.3 then try out the 3.2 to see if I have enough fuel supply.
You should definately give it more time to learn the fuel trims (LTFTs) before you decide which pulley to use. It takes at least 20 minutes of driving time with 2 driving cycles before any value is stored. From there you'll see changes in the trims based on ambient temps, and more importantly, humidity levels.

With cooler ambient temps you may not notice a big difference in LTFTs, but come summer time when ambient is around 25* C and humidity varies between dry and moist (like after rain or on hot humid days), you could see some significant change in LTFTs over time.

If you lock the LTFTs at 6% or more, just for discussion sake but that can be very common, then you will have that much less fuel when you enter PE in the PCM. Of course the O2 is ignored while in PE and fueling is based on predetermined values, not exhaust readings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000SilverBullet
The water injection works very similar to an intercooler in keeping the intake charge at around 100 F, so I should be able to make more boost...or add more timing....but at this point without reprogramming and going with a happy ****, it'* easier to add boost to get the same effect.
I agree with you there, with water injection I would raise boost in preference to timing (to a point). Since injection has a limited range because of tank capacity, I think you have to optimise your setup to be failsafe with no injector fluid...my prefernce is to have limited timing in this case while boost is modulated by not getting your foot onto the go pedal too heavily. Still, you have a Gen V blower, meaning it'* more thermally efficient than a Gen III so you're better off in this regard.

If you had an intercooler instead, then I would say you should target lower boost with more timing. If you have 12 to 14 Psi boost with good flow, as opposed to just boost stack and temperature build, with lots of timing, say 19 to 21*, then you're going to get awesome throttle response

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000SilverBullet
The real benefit to the water injection cooling over an intercooler is NO pressure drop across a heat exchanger.

Todd - you may be producing 15 psi but before the intercooler you are probably making about 19 psi and taking a 4 lb drop across it.
That'* why guys with intercoolers HAVE to run smaller pulley'*.
The pressure drop is not an negative with an intercooler, you have the same flow as before (more or less depending on the core restriction) but at a lower temperature...that means you can crank the timing up . There'* no inherant 'need' to reduce the pulley size, but if you can add timing and drop a pulley size, then it'* all 'poutine' from there

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000SilverBullet
So as long as I don't get any KR, the PCM is not pulling timing.
I will monitor the fuel flow and the timing to make sure.
Cool...but it will look different as the seasons change so keep an eye on it.

Oh, and I can confirm to you, even though I'm not a doctor, that the mod bug has bitten you pretty good . Let us know how it pregresses.

Cheers,
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Old 02-01-2007, 12:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
You should definately give it more time to learn the fuel trims (LTFTs) before you decide which pulley to use. It takes at least 20 minutes of driving time with 2 driving cycles before any value is stored. From there you'll see changes in the trims based on ambient temps, and more importantly, humidity levels.

With cooler ambient temps you may not notice a big difference in LTFTs, but come summer time when ambient is around 25* C and humidity varies between dry and moist (like after rain or on hot humid days), you could see some significant change in LTFTs over time.

If you lock the LTFTs at 6% or more, just for discussion sake but that can be very common, then you will have that much less fuel when you enter PE in the PCM. Of course the O2 is ignored while in PE and fueling is based on predetermined values, not exhaust readings.
Good advice on the LTFTs.
Don't forget where I live. Right now, it'* almost 100% humidity with lots of Fog.......horn and 40 F temps.
In our summers, it gets warmer but the humidity remains high.
Very good for SC.

I ran the car for two x one hour runs and shut it off and restarted a few times.

The throttle response is awesome. I was having so much fun with the wheel speed sensors pulled.

What do you mean by locking the LTFT? I will monitor the LTFT but what should I be looking for?

I'm currently saving for a wideband Air/Fuel gauge to assist tuning.
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:08 AM   #19
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Thanks Todd and Paul (Foghorn) for once again reiterating the boost pressure vs flow through the engine. Currently my thoughts are that we as a club frequently overlook the upside of better flow while seeing less pressure vs higher pressure reading. And if I flowed better..I'd have much lower pressure readings.

Flow is on the way soon. (Got Intense on speed dial now)
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Old 02-01-2007, 02:09 AM   #20
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With the ZZP V2 P-log, rear PEM and coated crossover (and rear PEM), 3.5" FWI, ZZP standard PCM, 3" cat back, underdrive WP pulley, ported SC inlet and outlet, ported TB, and with the 3.4" pulley today I was seeing 0* KR, and on the stock boost guage..... er, well off the boost guage it was pegged. Didn't manage to get into viewing timing advance or fuel trims. O2 was reading 930-940, coolant temp was around 180* (186* fan turn on). AIT reading was a balmy 19* with my climate control indicating 13* air temp in front of the radiator (AIT is just where the FWI comes into the engine bay).

My stock boost guage was pegged around 4800+ RPM, so probably anywhere from 10-12 psi. I know my SC rotors on this SC are in excellent condition, with near perfect rotor coating still attached (at least before I soaked 1/2 gallon of coolant into the engine because of the the f'n TB spacer). With the 3.3" I am clueless on the boost level, but again, all the above readings were practically identical. Again, I didn't see timing advance under full throttle, but things are feeling good as is, with temps in the teens and lower. This was with the new shop in town trying out their new Snap On scan-tool. I gotta get them setup on doing the CASE Learn with that ..... they never heard of it, nor had they ever heard of a procedure for syncing sensors after a PCM, Crank, Crank Sensor, or engine swap. I told them it'* important on our 3800'* and imagine it'* more important yet on DOHC engines with boost, which is what one of them drives (1996 Stealth R/T Twin Turbo).
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