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Performance, Brainstorming & Tuning Talk about modifications, or anything else associated with performance enhancements. Have a new idea for performance/reliability? Post it here. No idea is stupid! (please use Detailing and Appearance for cosmetic ideas)

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Old 03-05-2006, 11:53 AM   #11
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Anyone here actually do a UOA to determine how much dirt is actually getting into their engines? FWI UOAs show tons of silicon, indicating dirt injestion. Looking at a filter tells you nothing.

-T
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Old 03-05-2006, 12:07 PM   #12
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A couple good reads:

This is a SAE test using a K&N filter
http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm


http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=2101878
Here is a discussion from CGP

-T
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Old 03-05-2006, 12:19 PM   #13
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Kieth, your first link no-worky.

As far as FWI'* are concerned, you have to remember that the chassis/body setups are different on different cars, and installs vary.

My conclusions:

1. I think the FWI is very well protected on the 2000 Bonnevilles and newer. There is a prime location. I also think this filter should be cleaned a couple times a year in this location.

2. I wouldn't dare install one on a 87-99 Bonneville or other H body without some kind of custom shielding around the filter, and perhaps a 'sock'.

3. I have NFC how the GP'* install their FWI'* in comparison to the two conclusions above.

4. I have a custom CAI setup that pulls ram air from under the car about 3" from the road surface. I've had UOA done on my car and it came out far better than average for particulates foreign to the engine environment. This was at 5000 miles on Mobil1. But I clean my filter twice a year.
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Old 03-05-2006, 02:27 PM   #14
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The first link should work now. I agree some cars are worse then others, but it'* still an uneeded risk IMO. Some areas are better then other as well. I drive past gravel pits and a dump every day, so my car gets tons of dirt, but yet only 9ppm of silicon in 6k miles. A race car or carefully driven one might not be as bad.

My problem with a K&N FWI is that it is not needed. There are much better filter options available, as well as locations. A CAI is usually not a big deal on our cars, there is plenty of room under the hood. K&N'* only flow slightly better, and this is easily offset by using a larger paper filter. I use one from a 98 Chevy Truck. It is about 10" long and 8" in diameter, it flows plenty for most applications. I feel it makes a good CAI.

The following pic is from my 87, sorry for the bad pic. I'm still looking for a better intake hose, as the current one is not as smooth as I'd like.
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Old 03-05-2006, 05:09 PM   #15
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Wow. I think I've just heard the first person to ever say a K&N doesn't flow well, or trap much dirt.

I've used K&N filters on every car I've owned in the last 6 years, and never had a problem with them not flowing. MPG increased on every car, and power increased a small bit also. My Camaro has ran for 130K miles with a K&N, no problems whatsoever, my Intrepid ran for 90K+ miles with no problems, before I sold it, and it'* still running strong.

FWI'* don't pick up any more dirt than the stock intake box. So what if it does? If you follow the cleaning schedule for the filter, ( or more frequently if driving condition require) you shouldn't have any problems.

Many of us here have been running FWI'* with absolutely no problem. I think you should recheck your statements.
Also, that first link looks to me to be sponsored by AC/Delco, since their filters seem to "outperform" EVERY other filter on the test, on every aspect. I've never had a K&N "plug up".
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Old 03-05-2006, 05:36 PM   #16
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May be you can have "more" things into your engine, ..but , i dont think its enought to create any damage, even long term, its more how you do maintenance on your car than anything.

(for sure if you never clean your filter youll have problems)

If i was running in a gravel pit everyday, may be i should consider switching back to gutted air box, but right now, i dont see anything wrong.
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Old 03-05-2006, 07:11 PM   #17
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I'm definately not the first person to not like K&N filters. Read the filter study link I posted. The truth is that the K&N filter let in 45 times more dirt then the AC-delco, this is the size of dirt that has been proven to damage the engine. And this is in a stock airbox. It also shows that the K&N flows slightly better, which doesn't matter because you can just use a bigger paper filter to compensate.

Without tearing your engine apart or doing a UOA you wouldn't know if it'* causing any damage. Saying you haven't had any problem doesn't mean much either. The 3800 is a near bullet-proof engine which can handle a lot of abuse. But again why purposely put extra dirt into your engine for no reason.

I understand most people here will not be changing out their filters, but it'* something to think about for people who don't have one yet. That said, the information above and constant high silicon UOAs were enough for me to junk my K&N.

[/b]
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Old 03-06-2006, 01:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Keith
I'm definately not the first person to not like K&N filters. Read the filter study link I posted. The truth is that the K&N filter let in 45 times more dirt then the AC-delco, this is the size of dirt that has been proven to damage the engine. And this is in a stock airbox. It also shows that the K&N flows slightly better, which doesn't matter because you can just use a bigger paper filter to compensate.

Without tearing your engine apart or doing a UOA you wouldn't know if it'* causing any damage. Saying you haven't had any problem doesn't mean much either. The 3800 is a near bullet-proof engine which can handle a lot of abuse. But again why purposely put extra dirt into your engine for no reason.

I understand most people here will not be changing out their filters, but it'* something to think about for people who don't have one yet. That said, the information above and constant high silicon UOAs were enough for me to junk my K&N.

[/b]
from other websites:

Quote:
I did an UOA on my car at around 30k with 20k on the filter. The UOA showed a lower than normal amount of Si in the oil.
Quote:
This debate will go on for decades after I'm six feet in the ground. There is also a thread on Bobistheoilguy where a fella ran a K&N 200,000 + miles in his mother'* car and it was NEVER CLEANED! Search for it on that site. One of the moderators has a Corvette that came with a K&N and his UOA'* (used oil analysis) have been exemplary.

I have run these filters for so long that I used to order them from England because they were not available in the USA. I have sent in used oil for analysis and have never received one back with high silicon.
now normally, when you read of someone with high Si in their UOA'*, it'* something like this (no, I'm not making this up, every quote here is from a quick google)

Quote:
K&N filters don't filter worth d**n. I put one on my 98' Z-71 and had a Used Oil Analysis done on the next oil change. They analysis found a ton of silicon (dirt) in the oil. The company that did the UOA asked if I was running a K&N. They see the poor filtering of the K&Ns on a daily basis. IMO 3-4 HP isn't worth the risk of letting all the extra dirt into the engine.
Yeah. Fantastic. The guy has never done a UOA before he puts in the K&N, doesn't do it after he takes it out, but has it done *once* while the K&N is in place, has high Si levels, and BAM - it must be the K&N, right?

Of course.

And I averaged 28.2 mpg on the highway today, and yesterday I averaged 28.5. Yesterday it was sunny, today it'* not. Obviously, you get better gas mileage on sunny days, right?

Is the K&N dangerous for my vehicle? I don't think so. And I haven't been able to find anyone who'* ever lost a car to K&N wear. If you can, by all means, let us know.

Re: CAI vs FWI, I've found that this board typically swings back and forth on topics like this, and right now the FWI is particularly popular. Better? Eh, I don't know. I mean, with the levels that most are taking their vehicles too around here (as in, not that high of a level), I don't think you'd honestly know the difference between the two. My opinion? I hate the FWI. I think it'* too long (increased frictional losses in the pipe), and it'* flexible nature makes it harder to ensure that the air is straitening out before it hits the MAF. But that'* just my opinion. Doesn't really matter. Do what you feel like doing, and what you're going to want to look at when you look under your hood. FWI has the added benefit of having flexibility while the engine is rocking, whereas the CAI needs to be engineered a little bit to allow movement.

eh.
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Old 03-06-2006, 02:06 PM   #19
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Good post mkaake, There'* no doubt that we will not resolve anything here since there is so much personal prefference involved in this subject. And just like there is not only one way to get your car to go faster, there will always be those on either side who feel theirs is the better approach.

On the plus side, at least the subject can be discussed here at bC without any out and out flaming and name calling, no matter how opinionated any of us may be.
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Old 03-06-2006, 09:59 PM   #20
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