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Old 08-07-2003, 12:40 PM   #11
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Default Re: sorry about that

Quote:
Originally Posted by willsbonnie
In contrast, the car'* import competitors use modern, overhead-cam, multivalve engines - many of them with variable valve timing for smoother, more flexible power delivery.
That'* one way of looking at it. Another view is is excerpt from a review of the '98 Bonnie that refers to the Series II:

"The Bonneville'* 3800 Series II V6 is responsive and powerful, generating 205 horsepower and 230 foot-pounds (lb.-ft.) of torque. It delivers surprisingly good fuel mileage and environmentally friendly emissions numbers. Achieving these mutually exclusive benefits provides a convincing argument for the simpler, push-rod design used by the Series II V6 instead of double overhead-cam designs."

The full review is located here:

http://www.internetautoguide.com/rev...onneville.html

Just goes to show there are two sides to every story.
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Old 08-07-2003, 04:04 PM   #12
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Why the hell would anyone want to rev a 3800?! People need to quit jumping into every car they see and expect to make the most seat throwing power at 9000rpms.

How is pushrod technology outdated compared to SOHC or DOHC?
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Old 08-07-2003, 04:18 PM   #13
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Remember, it'* an article - an opinion.

OHV is somewhat dated to SOHC and DOHC engines in terms of the efficiency power output. A Honda 3.0 DOHC V6 makes 240hp - naturally aspirated with variable valve timing (SOHC VTEC). It'* not the DOHC VTEC that the S2000 gets, so VTEC here means more power across the whole rev range. A 3.8 Series II only makes 200hp in natural aspiration form - and less torque. The Honda V6 is more refined and should be reliable as hell.

Personally, I prefer the weaker Camry V6 over the Accord'*, as it is extremely smooth and gives you a lot of low end grunt... it basically drives like a 3800 with a little more power up at high revs and a deep, but not rumbling exhaust tone.

Although it'* tough to beat the 3800

Quote:
"The Bonneville'* 3800 Series II V6 is responsive and powerful, generating 205 horsepower and 230 foot-pounds (lb.-ft.) of torque. It delivers surprisingly good fuel mileage and environmentally friendly emissions numbers. Achieving these mutually exclusive benefits provides a convincing argument for the simpler, push-rod design used by the Series II V6 instead of double overhead-cam designs."
Quite true
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Old 08-07-2003, 04:20 PM   #14
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Weren't OHC and DOHC designs old? I'm pretty sure they used them on airplanes in WWII.

Edit: 1957 was the first use of OHC that I can find. Also the first DOHC engine in the USA was made by GM. Hmmm and they still use pushrods?

Quote:
In contrast, the car'* import competitors use modern, overhead-cam, multivalve engines - many of them with variable valve timing for smoother, more flexible power delivery.
Most engine designs arn't new. Variable valve timing bah. My dads 1978 Snowmobile has that. BMW'* and stuff used multiple valves a LONG time ago. I don't understand how they can be modern! Even rotary engines are old!

It'* something in itself when they can use one engine to power multiple cars. It'* reliable, cheap(for GM and the customer) and can make a hell of a lot of power. Look at dbtk2'* GP. Those reviewers have no idea what they are talking about.

Quote:
Step on the gas too hard (it doesn't feel too hard) and the front tires squeal like pigs under a gate.
WOW, how do these people get through college and life without dieing. Damn Darwin let us down! You have no idea how to drive a car! 280lbs-tq is ALOT different than a 80 lbs-tq Honda!

Quote:
Like all two-valve pushrod engines, this one produces peak torque at lower engine speeds (280 pounds-feet at 3600 r.p.m.), but tends to labor at higher revs.
What the hell does getting peak power and laboring at higher revs have to do with being a good engine? The engine is just going to last longer with lower RPM'*. High *** RPM'* destroy engines. Also, you want torque at low RPM'* so you get MOVING FAST!

Ugh, stupid people **** me off.
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Old 08-07-2003, 05:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassplayincrowe
Most engine designs arn't new. Variable valve timing bah. My dads 1978 Snowmobile has that. BMW'* and stuff used multiple valves a LONG time ago. I don't understand how they can be modern! Even rotary engines are old!
Old, yes, mainstream back then, no. Nowadays, overhead cams and variable valve timing is the norm.

Quote:
It'* something in itself when they can use one engine to power multiple cars. It'* reliable, cheap(for GM and the customer) and can make a hell of a lot of power. Look at dbtk2'* GP. Those reviewers have no idea what they are talking about.
Toyota uses their 3.0 V6 in the Camry, Avalon, Solara, Sienna, Lexus RX and ES, with 3.3L variants. Having the same engines in new cars is commonplace now

Quote:
Step on the gas too hard (it doesn't feel too hard) and the front tires squeal like pigs under a gate.
Quote:
WOW, how do these people get through college and life without dieing. Damn Darwin let us down! You have no idea how to drive a car! 280lbs-tq is ALOT different than a 80 lbs-tq Honda!
They're referring to unwanted wheelspin - they feel that the traction control wasn't designed as well as it should have been.

Quote:
Like all two-valve pushrod engines, this one produces peak torque at lower engine speeds (280 pounds-feet at 3600 r.p.m.), but tends to labor at higher revs.
Quote:
What the hell does getting peak power and laboring at higher revs have to do with being a good engine? The engine is just going to last longer with lower RPM'*. High *** RPM'* destroy engines. Also, you want torque at low RPM'* so you get MOVING FAST!
3800'* can be fast, no doubt about it, but don't tell me you're going to be loafing around at 2000 rpm when you're passing on a two-lane highway. Power up high counts too. The 3800 can manage, but relative to the low end, it runs out of breath. If an engine was properly designed to rev higher, it will do so without problems. High revs in an engine not exactly made to rev will destroy that engine

Quote:
Ugh, stupid people **** me off.
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Old 08-07-2003, 05:20 PM   #16
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I think you need to drive a Supercharged Bonneville. I have driven a 2000 Accord four banger...off the line....brutal, once it gets going, yes lots of top end power. No question, the v6, well, unless I had a mean Series II or an SC. I don't bother.

Mechanically Toyota is the most reliable car out there...but they are not daring (cept the fugly Celica). Imported mills have lots of HP yet can't get a torque count up. I'd never back down to a Camry or an Avalon ever. The race would be over to quick. I'd be too far ahead before they got to the top end power.
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Old 08-07-2003, 05:23 PM   #17
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Ah, perhaps you haven't raced a Cressida then

It'* killed an H-Car, Buick, got up to 140 or 150km/h... Supra with four doors, anyone? :P

The Camry and Avalon'* 3.0 V6 is not a top-end power engine. It favours the low and midrange more... good enough to get the Camry to 100km/h in 8.
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Old 08-07-2003, 05:25 PM   #18
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LOL...I'll take it on.
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Old 08-07-2003, 05:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repinS
Ah, perhaps you haven't raced a Cressida then

It'* killed an H-Car, Buick, got up to 140 or 150km/h... Supra with four doors, anyone? :P

The Camry and Avalon'* 3.0 V6 is not a top-end power engine. It favours the low and midrange more... good enough to get the Camry to 100km/h in 8.
Well I won't say anything regarding their comments on the grand prix, because as you all know i am hardly a fan of it. But as for the 3800....their comments seem like nothing but an ego boost....he must drive a honda where you only GET power at high rpms. And as for outdated...as far as I'm concerned the 3800 was one of - if not THE - highest hp producing V6s from '87 up until THIS YEAR. Thats 15 years. If 15 years ahead of time is outdated, he must be moving backwards in time.

I've raced older Supras before and they are NOTHING like what they are hyped up to be. Neither is the Camry as far as I'm concerned...140-150 kms/h is nothing....neither is 0-100kmph in 8 seconds. i'm not overly impressed when i know of a car that is MUCH heavier and can do that in 7.1 and it'* not a tin can like the camry either.
But then again...I suppose i'm biased
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Old 08-07-2003, 05:38 PM   #20
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All hail the Queen....

Well documented Tam
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