Bosch+4 Platinum VS. NGK TR55 in 96 Vin K (NA) SSE - Page 2 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 12-19-2006, 03:54 PM   #11
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Can we hop back on topic to spark plugs please.
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:02 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBoost37
Can we hop back on topic to spark plugs please.
Sure... whatta yuh wanna know? LOL!!!
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACDRIVE
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBoost37
Can we hop back on topic to spark plugs please.
Sure... whatta yuh wanna know? LOL!!!
Macdrive, that'* not on topic either.
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Old 12-20-2006, 09:19 AM   #14
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I can attest to the +4'* on how much smoother the engine was and the torque increase. I put these in a Mits. Montero w/the 3.0 engine and as big as this SUV was (this was a 96 model) I could tell a huge difference in torque on the low end. Well, not THAT huge...but it was noticeable. Gas mileage went up too...I think it was an extra 60 miles per tank. But keep in mind I did a full ignition system change (rotor, wires, cap, and plugs).

Now if only Bosch could do the copper core and multiple electrode configuration, that would be cool.
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Old 12-20-2006, 09:22 AM   #15
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Lets try to keep in mind that plugs can't add power unless:

1. Your old plugs were worn out. They RESTORE that lost power.
2. Your plug selection was incorrect (gap, heatrange, etc).

Note that Sandrocks good experience with Bosch was NOT on a 3800. Bosch makes good stuff. But different cars have different taste.
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Old 12-21-2006, 01:15 AM   #16
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Default Why ignore evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Lets try to keep in mind that plugs can't add power unless:

1. Your old plugs were worn out. They RESTORE that lost power.
2. Your plug selection was incorrect (gap, heatrange, etc).

Note that Sandrocks good experience with Bosch was NOT on a 3800. Bosch makes good stuff. But different cars have different taste.
Both of these assumptions are incorrect. The two month old Bosch'* outperformed the Brand New TR55s gapped at .060. Then when these two month old, used plugs were put back in, the power came back instantly! I changed NOTHING ELSE on the car until the test was done.

I don't know where this assumption the the plugs can't make a difference in power comes from or why it persists.

If you have a weaker ignition vs a stronger more powerful coil your car will run poorly in comparison. Why is that? The spark still goes to the plug, the plug is still igniting the air / fuel combo. What is the difference in this scenario?

The difference is that a smaller spark ignites the mix, but slower than a larger more powerful spark would. So the fuel burns, but not as quickly as it might have. More importantly, if the spark, or sparks are large or more intense, or maybe just more open to the mixture due to the "side gapping", you just might set more of the fuel on fire initially. Thus getting the most combustion at the beginning of the cycle where it will push the piston the most. Further expansion after the piston is already on it'* way down, will not provide anywhere near the power it would at the point of the most compression.

I only wish we still had REAL emissions testing equipment here in NC so I could have gotten emissions results too. (Now we just rely on the car'* computer for our emissions tests) I could have gotten more info on the quality of the exhaust.

Thinking about that and it all makes perfect sense. It'* also one of the reasons Nitrous Oxide works so well. Sure dumping more fuel in will make you go faster, but there is more to it. Nitrous Oxide isn't a fuel itself, and isn't very combustible by itself, so it'* relativle safe to have in the car. It DOES make the air / fuel mixture burn faster (oxide = oxygen) and more efficiently too. You can run pure oxygen if you want, probably have a good "kick" too, but it'* super dangerous.

Back to the plugs...
I'm sorry if the plugs aren't "it" for the SC engines, but I've used them on many N/A vehicles and always had better than average experience. I had initially put in the Denso Iridiums due to similar remarks that they were the best, but had not tested them directly against the +4s. Now I've done some actual testing and KNOW what works well.

All I can ask is that you duplicate the experiment yourself, on a N/A Series 2 3800. Why is that so hard?
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Old 12-21-2006, 01:36 AM   #17
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I don't disagree. I run the Bosch 4s myself. Just wondering if the gap was correct for the engine. I was considering this but I may have changed my mind. Also, everyone keeps saying they do not last long but nobody says how long is not very long. So how long is not very long?
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshelton54
I don't disagree. I run the Bosch 4s myself. Just wondering if the gap was correct for the engine. I was considering this but I may have changed my mind. Also, everyone keeps saying they do not last long but nobody says how long is not very long. So how long is not very long?
Jared, you are supercharged. You cannot run platinums. They don't dissipate heat well enough in forced induction applications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
I called NGK this morning after noticing the difference in gapping between the TR55 and TR6 (for reference, this is for both the V-Power and Irridiums, and the TR55 is one heatrange colder than stock, TR6 is two heatranges colder).

Factory gapping for us is .060". The TR55 comes that way and is fine. NGK'* website shows the TR6 gapped at .039", and I'd never noticed that before (I was re-gapping mine to .060", and this is what I called to ask them). The tech told me the TR6 is actually gapped at .032", regardless of the website stating .039".

At this point, I asked him what I should be gapping to, based on my mods. He gave me a range of .040" to .045" for the TR6 in my car, and he agreed that because of my hotter MSD coils (and the same would hold true for the 97+ SSEi coils) I should tend to the bigger side, or .045".

The general rule of thumb is never change the gap larger or smaller than factory gapping by .008". In this case, the listed gap of .039" could be safely raised to .047 for my TR6'*, but the ACTUAL gap as I was told of .032" could only be safely gapped up to .040". With that in mind, he told me I'd be fine up to .045", just pushing the PAPER limits. The idea is to keep the faces of center electrode and ground electrode as parallel to each other as possible, and if you go too far, you induce an angle on the ground electrode, so the gap isn't even across the face of the center electrode.

Now to dispel some incertainty with Copper, Irridium, and Platinum in Forced Induction applications:

Platinum IS CONFIRMED bad news in supercharged, turbo, or nitrous (and even alcohol/methanol) injected applications. Irridium is as good as copper, as the core of the Irridium plug is still copper, and it'* just an Irridium plating (it'* actually a copper plug pressed into an Irridium jacket).

The interesting part is that people playing with heatrange changes often select the wrong Irridium plug. In alot of cases, you should go another heatrange colder when switching from copper to Irridium. In my case, since I'm just barely into the 2 heatranges colder need, I'll stick with TR6 if I switch to Irridiums, but someone else more heavily modded would want to run up to the TR7.

NGK plugs are reverse of domestic plug manufacturers in their heatrange specs. The lower the number, the hotter the plug. Higher numbers are colder. So the TR7 is 3 heatranges colder than stock, the TR6 is two colder, and the TR55 is one colder.

I probably won't make the switch to Irridiums simply because of the frequency I change my plugs. I do it once a year. If I went to full lifetime of the plugs, I'd probably do it, but the difference between $2 a plug and nearly $8 per plug seems ridiculous for my frequent plug changes.

Here'* a good plug FAQ I suggest for anyone wondering about plugs:
http://www.ngk.com/faqmain.asp
This is an authorized distributor of NGK, but not NGK themselves. I got alot more information on the specifics of my application from NGK directly.

I'm buying my plugs from http://www.ngk.com/ (authorized DISTRIBUTOR, not NGK the manufacturer). I typically have to order my plugs from NAPA, as most stores don't stock the TR6 on the shelf. NAPA ships quickly, but this time I'm getting shipping to my door, rather than having to go to the store to pick them up.

I also briefly discussed O2 sensors with the Tech (who was VERY knowledgeable), and he'* checking on whether or not NGK makes the AC Delco O2 sensors. If they do, try this for comparison:

www.ngk.com lists my O2 at $16.85 (p/n 21002)
www.gmpartsdirect.com lists my O2 at $26.40 (GM# 25162693 or AC Delco #AFS-20)
$10 savings.

I'll be talking with him next week to confirm that the NGK is the AC Delco sensor in sheeps clothing

I'm in the process of getting my plugs and wires here for a swap before WCBF. Might have to do it DURING WCBF if they don't get here soon. I have a high resistance on 2 of my plug wires right now, and my plugs may be fouled by my recent troubles with my alternator. Last time my alternator failed, my spark voltages were low enough to foul out a set of plugs rather quickly.

Let'* use this thread to accumulate what we can for a Techinfo article.
In addition to THAT, read this about Bosch spark plugs:

Quote:
Bosch acknowledges a problem with using their Bosch Platinum spark plugs
in engines with ignition systems that employ 1 coil for each pair of spark
plugs (also known as a "waste spark ignition system").


The problem that Bosch has acknowledged when using their Platinum plugs
in engines with waste spark ignition systems stems from the tendency of
electrode metal to get transferred depending upon the polarity (direction
of current flow) of the spark. In waste spark ignition systems, 1/2 of the
plugs always see reverse polarity sparks. Given the very narrow platinum
center electrode of the Bosch Platinums, performance will be degraded more
significantly when reverse polarity sparks will cause material to be
transferred from the large ground/outer electrode onto the narrow platinum
center electrode'* exposed end surface.

All GM 3800'* are Waste Spark. This is not a myth. This is from Bosch themselves, and the information was obtained the same way I obtained my information above from NGK. A phone call.

http://www.brickboard.com/ARCHIVES/1...10003481.shtml

And it'* not just them or us:

Quote:
http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/inde...showtopic=2915

AT LEAST a 36.25% failure rate in our sample size of 80 vehicles

17.5% failed immediately

Another 18.75% that didn't fail immediately failed within 20K miles (premature for a platinum plug)

There are still another 31.25% that are working so far, but haven't accumulated 20K miles yet. So they are "up for grabs" statistically, an could inflate that 36.25% failure rate even higher.

Still want to gamble?

Dan
And there'* more information out there.
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:02 AM   #19
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I just want to add a little here...

We have seen these Bosch Plats fail early on in 3.0'*, 3.8'* 3800'* and 3800 2'* all using the waste spark method...

And on many occasions I have seen the plugs fail when used with the GM HEI distributors...

Most of the Waste Saprk Buick V6'* should see 7000-10000 miles.. The HEI'* should get a little further... But in the end they will fail early...

This is not an I hate bosch deal...


we have Bosch, fuel pressure regulators, Bosch injectors and most of them function very well with no issues...

Bosch Platinum plugs are a problem in the GM DIS applications...

If you want to run the Bosch Platinums in an NA'd application, all I can say is its your car you do what you will, But I will reccomend aginst it..

I have run the stocker AC Delcos,AC Delco Rapidfire Platinum, Autolites, NGK TR55... Car has run great with all of these plugs.... After well over 2 years and a lot of abuse the Rapidfire Platinums came out looking great.. They looked good enough that I kept them as a just in case..

Willwren, thats some good info..

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Old 12-21-2006, 11:55 AM   #20
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Default What?

Okay, so the first part of willwren'* reply is for Jared and other SC applications, and discusses NGKs heat range differences as compared to domestic plugs. That makes sense and has little to do with my test. I'm not qualified to speak on SC performance, plugs, or heat ranged except maybe in a general fashion. But I'm not.

The second quotation details the issues related to how the different sides of the coils affect the plugs they are connected to. Specifically that plugs connected to the neg side of the coil pack will have some material move from the ground electrode to the center over time thus degrading the plug'* performance.

Well this is something that may happen over a period of time. What is that period of time? I don't think anyone here knows for sure and I'm sure it varies with application. I know that I don't have a problem replacing my plugs every 6 months to a year. For some people thats just crazy talk. I would rather have plugs, brakes, and air filter'* replaced / cleaned / etc. every six months and get the best performance / mileage / safety I can from the vehicle than to put something in and get mediocre performance / mileage / safety from it.

I looked at that taurusclub thread (and I thank you for showing me this site too!) and found the reviews mixed. There were people that had fouled plugs, and other "problems" that may be related to an engine that was already problematic and not the plugs themselves. It'* hard to tell. But there were several that looked like this as well:

Quote:
I am convinced that Bosch Platnium +4'* are the best out there. After 51,000 miles, I figured it was time to change them on my Duratec. They were white to say the least. I've been listen to everyone talk about how good Motorcraft double platnium (original OEM) plugs were, so I decided to go try them again. Maybe, I just fogot how good they were.

God, they suck! When I hit the gas, it'* so much slower and the timing is way off. I replaced the ignition coil, the spark plug wires (8.5mm) all with Motorcraft parts. Don't get me wrong, they work, they just don't give me the kick like the Bosch +4'* did. With Bosch, I barely have to move the pedal and it would give an instant pull, rather than 2 second delay and then it slowly pulls like they are doing now. I'm going to throw the $65 set of NEW Motorcraft plugs away and spend $36 for a set of 6 Bosch plugs this weekend.

If anyone wants the Motorcraft plugs, you can have'm. They suck!
Sounds similar to my experience. I did put them in a 2001 Ford Taurus with the Duratech V6 for a friend. They worked great for just over a year (22K miles) and were replaced with Autolite double platinums when it started having less power and I wasn't around for her to call. It runs fine, smooth, but it gets less mileage and has less performance. I'll try and talk her into swapping out the plugs to see if it goes back to the way it was before. We'll see.

There is so much mis-information out there and one person said that they are for imports only, another person said that they're for German cars only, etc. etc.

Forget it. Test them all yourselves and report. But I don't think a plug should be trashed because it gives way better performance / millage for only 20K miles or whatever it turns out to be.

Let'* see. If thy run for 20K miles and has a mileage gain that equates to just one mile a gallon (way conservative). Assuming you get 30 MPG already. That'* about 667 gallons with your old plugs and 645 gallons used with the +4s. A difference of only 12 gallons, * 2.50 a gallon (Nc price for 93) it'* saving you $30. and that'* at a minimum because the plugs definitely have more power, and if you drove conservatively instead of the way I drive, that would mean much better than 1 MPG improvement.

Guess what, six +4s at Autozone, 4.99 each around here, = $29.94 + tax!

I think the next plugs I try will be the Bosch +4 Fusion IRs because maybe they will last longer the the regular +4s. Maybe that'* the ones to try for that Taurus too? We'll see.
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