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Old 06-02-2016, 01:41 AM   #21
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Hard to tell uncle George that worked at the GM frame stamping plant for 35 years that he was wrong.
When he was not!
GM K platform

K-body) was the basis of the Cadillac Seville model over two entirely different automobile platforms. 1970s GM K platform (RWD) 1980– GM K platform (FWD)

Well what do you know same platform {RWD AKA NOVA frame} and {FWD AKA modified nova frame} my thanks to CATHEDRAL CLUB for showing uncle George was correct the whole time
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Old 06-02-2016, 04:29 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by REGAL GUY View Post
Well according to the source my father and others GM used NOVA modified frames to build the short Cadillac with the weird trunk.
My father said go check out the two frames they used the same frame rails other family members worked at the GM plant the frames came from they saved millions not to have to buy new tooling.
Like I said, I don't want a p1ss1ng match. At the same time this is an interesting topic. Yes GM does re-use stuff if they can to keep production costs down. I get that. So lets explore:

The Nova/Apollo/Omega/Ventura RWD frame was fairly narrow, large arches in back to allow the solid rear axle to travel up and down and almost no arches in front to allow conventional crossmember and motor mount placement and conventional control-arm mounting. Steering arms are behind of the front suspension. Crossmembers had to allow the transmission to trail behind the engine and the driveshaft to move up and down behind that. The main engine crossmember is right under the center point of the engine and motor mounts are there as well.

The Seville/Riviera/Toronado FWD frame is a bit wider, almost no arches in back to allow the independent rear suspension somewhere to be mounted, and minor arches in front to allow the steering arms to move around and half-shafts' inner CV joints to mate with the differential. Steering arms are forward of the front suspension. Crossmembers behind the firewall are almost flat (except for room for the exhaust pipe). The main engine crossmember is right under the front crank seal and motor mounts are there as well.

If we dig deep enough it could be possible that some portion of the frame rails of the Sev/Riv/Toro are inherited from the Nova/Apollo/Omega/Ventura , but when we get there we'll probably find more in common with the GMC FWD motorhome or the 70'* FWD Eldos and Toros.

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Wikipedia did not work at the GM plant now did they?
Neither did Britannica, Websters, GMForum.com, Vic Edelbrock, or Jegs . That doesn't mean any of them are wrong about Novas or Sevilles.
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Old 06-02-2016, 04:41 AM   #23
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REGAL GUY
For what it'* worth, in my travels today I stopped at a Collision shop and talked with the owner who remembers stuff he worked on back in the 70'* and 80'*. To his recollection, the Seville (and possible other models of Caddies) could very well have used the frame rails from the Nova as you suggested. He, however, remembers distinctly that the PLATFORMS for the Nova and Caddy were different, hence different configurations between the finished frame Nova vs Caddy. That might be where the confusion came from, frame rails the same but different cross members, gussets, etc. So you are possibly correct as well as CATHEDRAL CLUB being correct also. I remember back in the 70'* my Dad'* caddy needed lower ball joints and my buddy at the parts store gave me the Moog ball joints for a Chevy which were the same thing only packaged, and sold, at different prices. GM is notorious for saving money by using parts from one badge to another to save them money. You might buy a Caddy in looks but the guts could very well be supplied by Pontiac, Olds Buick or Chevy. Case in point, through EXTENSIVE use of the internet, I'm finding parts for my '83 Seville are also used on the other GM badges.

This stuff is always fun to me. My Roadmaster is essentially a Caprice with Buick clothes on. That meant that when I wanted to firm up the ride, all I had to do was get shocks for a Caprice 9C1 Police Interceptor. Turns out the rear shocks are no difference, while the front shocks are from a 1-ton Chevy Van same year. Threw those on my RM and fixed it right up. Then it occurred to me that my 1973 Buick Centurions ate shocks like I eat hamburgers (thanks to the heavy front end). They'd always be good for 10,000-15,000 miles then be shot. I wonder if they are the same part as the stock shocks for the 95 RM? Indeed yes they are. That means the 9C1 shocks will fit. Finally a good ride in those boats (when I restore them). Keep digging, same front shocks fit all B- and C- bodies from 1970 up until end of production including coupes, sedans, wagons, and convertibles. Probably fit earlier models and at least a couple decades of Chevy vans too.
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Old 06-02-2016, 04:49 AM   #24
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CATHEDRAL CLUB
You piqued my interest with the Riv dash suggestion. I called around and found two models I'm going to look at to see if it is feasible to swap dash parts and accompanying gauges, etc. without spending a fortune.
Maybe, depending on how the panels and gauges attach, it might be a good idea to get the whole dash . . . ?

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The Riv parts, at least in this area are more readily available than the Seville of my era. For all of the bad mouthing the 80 to 85 Seville'* have received, mostly referred to as GM'* "deadly sin", there should be tons of them in junk yards but that is not the case. I'm wondering why unless all of them have been sent to the crusher.
I think a lot of them went to the crusher faster than Rivs. With the standard engine being the diesel for a few years the line'* fate was fairly-well sealed. Not to mention the V864, the early 4.1 Caddy V8s, and the Buick 4.1 V6'*. All had great points . . . that were overshadowed by their greater flaws. Meanwhile Rivs got yeah several of the above and lots of Olds 307'* and Buick 3.8T'* and those definitely held up better.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:04 AM   #25
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The frame RAILS are on each side of the car!
Adding different cross sections for FWD to RWD don't change the frame rails
or squeezing them down in the back or front the basic rail was used!
From the NOVA frame stamping machine then modified.
Source GM workers at the GM frame stamping plant.
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:41 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by REGAL GUY View Post
The frame RAILS are on each side of the car!
Adding different cross sections for FWD to RWD don't change the frame rails
or squeezing them down in the back or front the basic rail was used!
Agree, frame rails are on each side of the car, hence my:

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Originally Posted by CathedralCub View Post
large arches in back to allow the solid rear axle to travel up and down and almost no arches in front to allow conventional crossmember
. . . referring to the frame rails (on the sides) that would interfere with a live axle in the rear and have conventional front-suspension components and crossmembers mounted to it etc.

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Originally Posted by REGAL GUY View Post
From the NOVA frame stamping machine then modified.
Not sure why they'd stamp out a frame one way then modify it completely another way. This would seem analogous to making a banana out of an apple. And it would be twice the work (or more), which GM didn't ever pay for if they didn't have to.

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Originally Posted by REGAL GUY View Post
Source GM workers at the GM frame stamping plant.
Got it. I've been under probably a couple hundred Riviera+Sevilles+Eldorados+Toronados back when they were coming in for warranty etc. all the time. Also been under a bunch of Novas and Apollos. No similarity. Maybe your sources are referring to same presses with new dies? I don't know them and wasn't there.

Look, overall this isn't worth kicking back and forth until the end of time. The only reason I engaged this issue is (1) I believe it to be incorrect based on my own first-hand observations and (2) the most useful use of knowledge of common frames is interchangeability of major parts, and nothing will interchange between any Nova and any 1979-1985 Riv/Sev/Eldo/Toro save very pieces like bolts, nuts, etc.

Perhaps, take this thread back to your sources if they are available and they can elaborate?
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Old 06-03-2016, 04:30 PM   #27
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Well you take your basic Nova frame rail then you change pucks in your 100 ton frame stamping machine and you can stamp it out longer in the back or the front or in the middle or any part of it you want.
Then you add the cross members you want {depending if its FWD or RWD }
then you weld or rivet it together to fit the application.
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Old 06-28-2016, 02:50 AM   #28
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I, CathedralCub, hereby request a pause in this battle of the frame rails to propose a truce with Regal Guy.

Regal Guy, it appears we are dueling to the end over differing opinions of what constitutes a relationship between one frame rail design and another. I steadfastly hold to one position, and you to another.

Fortunately, the Interweb gets us just close enough to one another to swing our frame-rails and strike that of the other. Unfortunately, the cruelty of the Interweb does not get us close enough to hold them side-by side a mere three decades in the past to see the ancients in action. Without this, I fear we could battle until the end of time, when all that we hold dear has turned to dust.

Please accept my offer of a truce, and we can go forward together mostly agreeing on other things while helping all mankind with their automotive woes. Especially the Buick owners.

Sincerely,
CathedralCub
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Old 06-28-2016, 08:37 AM   #29
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Its not a matter of opinions when members of my family built the frame rails in there own words its a fact in my case.
My source is GM workers .
Its best if you stop giving the wrong information out on this subject
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Old 06-28-2016, 08:55 AM   #30
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Tooling cost millions and millions so they just don't go out and spend 500 million on
a new frame stamping machine.
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