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Old 12-07-2007, 07:29 PM   #1
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Default */C inlet cooling on topswap: IC or water injection?

Let'* say, as a supporting mod for a top swap, I'm looking for a supercharger inlet cooling mod to help keep an M90 from chipping the pistons on an L36 bottom end.

Let'* further say the budget for this is around $500 to $600 tops.

Should I be looking at an air-to-water intercooler (e.g., ZZP shortstack) or water injection (e.g., Snow water injection system)?

Notes: this is going to be a daily driver, NOT a track beast. It will probably see at most 7-8 psi boost (maybe a little more if the cooling allows it ) And, if I did water injection, it would most certainly be after the rotors.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:32 PM   #2
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Ag, from now on, can you keep all your topics in to one? This is all the same project. Let'* keep everything in one place.

Water injection is highly overrated. The only two people on this Forum with any experience with it aren't too impressed. It'* not a system that is 'hands off'.

An intercooler and/or WI won't keep you from chipping pistons. Proper tuning and maintenance will. An intercooler wouldn't have prevented mine.

Intercooling is something to look at when you're into the 13'* on the quarter and wanting to push farther. Get your car there first. The ZZP intercooler has some hidden costs over and above that 600. Look into it.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Ag, from now on, can you keep all your topics in to one? This is all the same project. Let'* keep everything in one place.

Water injection is highly overrated. The only two people on this Forum with any experience with it aren't too impressed. It'* not a system that is 'hands off'.

An intercooler and/or WI won't keep you from chipping pistons. Proper tuning and maintenance will. An intercooler wouldn't have prevented mine.

Intercooling is something to look at when you're into the 13'* on the quarter and wanting to push farther. Get your car there first. The ZZP intercooler has some hidden costs over and above that 600. Look into it.
I will try to keep things together more...I guess you could say I'm just collecting ideas here and there before it all "coalesces" into an actual project (and not just "vaporware")

I know tuning'* the biggest part. (along with octane) I view this as a support mod, and I need to make a decision upfront (during the planning stages) about which way I might someday go; however, since I really don't ever expect to see 13'*, does this mean I probably won't need either?
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Old 12-07-2007, 08:00 PM   #4
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An intercooler is not a power-adder or a safety. It allows you to drop pulley sized farther than you would have without it, but even Rogue will tell you that it'* one of the last things you do, as well as a GenV. All the rest of your build should be complete and working before going that way. It'* just not a good return otherwise.
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Old 12-07-2007, 08:49 PM   #5
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I know neither is a power-adder per se...I am beginning to recognize it'* not really a safety either--perhaps the opposite, as it struck me that if you tune to the "bleeding edge" using IC or injection, and it fails, you're phooked

I do want to learn more, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren
Water injection is highly overrated. The only two people on this Forum with any experience with it aren't too impressed. It'* not a system that is 'hands off'.
Maybe I just didn't search deeply enough, but the only knock I've seen on water injection is that it abrades rotor coatings off if injected before the rotors...can you tell me more about what'* so unimpressive about water injection?

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The ZZP intercooler has some hidden costs over and above that 600. Look into it.
Can you explain the hidden costs some more, too?

Thanks
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:20 PM   #6
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Water injection doesn't abrade the coating off. I don't know where you heard that, but if it happened, the owner of the car used the wrong 'mix'. I've run a 50/50 methanol/water mix for quite some time. SilverBullet ran a similar mix. I have my SC off quite regularly and have never seen any effect other than super-clean rotors.

Hidden costs of an intercooler will be anything not included in the kit. Some kits vary. You need the intercooler core, front radiator, a reservior checkvalve (nice to have), pump, and all the tubing and fittings for that, the LIM and SC housing need to be machined, and the fuel rails must be customized or fuel injector spacers used. Most kits don't include either of these last two items.

The ZZP short stack intercooler doesn't come with a fuel rail solution. That'* extra, as is the machining of the LIM and SC.

That intercooler will only allow a .1 or .2 inch drop in pulley diameter. It'* about half as effective as a full intercooler.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:42 PM   #7
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You didn't say what you found to be unimpressive about water injection.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:56 PM   #8
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Unpredictable results. Sometimes great, sometimes not. Inconsistent enough not to be able to count on it or tune for it.

From a performance standpoint, unreliable at best.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:19 PM   #9
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OK, i am getting in here a little late but here are my thoughts.

Andrew is doing the GT1 cam along with a top swap (cam is proven great with the top swaps i have seen). Andrew i liked your comment abotu not planning on 13'*. With a top swap on that higher comp motor and the gt1 and a decent tune, i would say almost plan on 13'* with just that.


My next question is going to be what are you doing for exhaust, that is going to be your down fall. I truely dont think PEMS'* are going to be right for you not on that higher comp motor. Just my thought


As for water injection, i wouldnt do it.

As for the SSIC..... ummmm..uhhhh. Might be something you would like. As for costs wren, i belive that with the SSIC you dont need to machine the supercharger and lim (almost 99% sure), but yes you have to find an injector solution, but doesnt he have injector spacers already?? not sure there


So my thoughts. Top swap with GT1 cam.... going to need headers, almost a giving......but you maybe able to get away with pems and a 3 inch dp. Also think P&P lim, and blower. Hint Hint, WBS is having a sale on P&P blowers.



I will start there and we can go from those thoughts
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Old 12-08-2007, 12:04 AM   #10
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If you want good flow through the core of ANY supercharger, the LIM and SC should be milled. That'* assuming you want the best performance for the money you're spending. considering the cost of the SSIC, I'd say it'* worth it.

Want to know how to reduce the temps of the intake charge by 'fixing' the supercharger? It'* already posted if you search, but I'd be willing to refresh you here if you like.
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