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S/C inlet cooling on topswap: IC or water injection?
Let's say, as a supporting mod for a top swap, I'm looking for a supercharger inlet cooling mod to help keep an M90 from chipping the pistons on an L36 bottom end.
Let's further say the budget for this is around $500 to $600 tops. Should I be looking at an air-to-water intercooler (e.g., ZZP shortstack) or water injection (e.g., Snow water injection system)? Notes: this is going to be a daily driver, NOT a track beast. It will probably see at most 7-8 psi boost (maybe a little more if the cooling allows it ;) ) And, if I did water injection, it would most certainly be after the rotors. |
Ag, from now on, can you keep all your topics in to one? This is all the same project. Let's keep everything in one place.
Water injection is highly overrated. The only two people on this Forum with any experience with it aren't too impressed. It's not a system that is 'hands off'. An intercooler and/or WI won't keep you from chipping pistons. Proper tuning and maintenance will. An intercooler wouldn't have prevented mine. Intercooling is something to look at when you're into the 13's on the quarter and wanting to push farther. Get your car there first. The ZZP intercooler has some hidden costs over and above that 600. Look into it. ;) |
Originally Posted by willwren
Ag, from now on, can you keep all your topics in to one? This is all the same project. Let's keep everything in one place.
Water injection is highly overrated. The only two people on this Forum with any experience with it aren't too impressed. It's not a system that is 'hands off'. An intercooler and/or WI won't keep you from chipping pistons. Proper tuning and maintenance will. An intercooler wouldn't have prevented mine. Intercooling is something to look at when you're into the 13's on the quarter and wanting to push farther. Get your car there first. The ZZP intercooler has some hidden costs over and above that 600. Look into it. ;) I know tuning's the biggest part. (along with octane) I view this as a support mod, and I need to make a decision upfront (during the planning stages) about which way I might someday go; however, since I really don't ever expect to see 13's, does this mean I probably won't need either? |
An intercooler is not a power-adder or a safety. It allows you to drop pulley sized farther than you would have without it, but even Rogue will tell you that it's one of the last things you do, as well as a GenV. All the rest of your build should be complete and working before going that way. It's just not a good return otherwise.
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I know neither is a power-adder per se...I am beginning to recognize it's not really a safety either--perhaps the opposite, as it struck me that if you tune to the "bleeding edge" using IC or injection, and it fails, you're phooked :oops:
I do want to learn more, though...
Originally Posted by willwren
Water injection is highly overrated. The only two people on this Forum with any experience with it aren't too impressed. It's not a system that is 'hands off'.
Originally Posted by willwren
The ZZP intercooler has some hidden costs over and above that 600. Look into it. ;)
Thanks |
Water injection doesn't abrade the coating off. I don't know where you heard that, but if it happened, the owner of the car used the wrong 'mix'. I've run a 50/50 methanol/water mix for quite some time. SilverBullet ran a similar mix. I have my SC off quite regularly and have never seen any effect other than super-clean rotors.
Hidden costs of an intercooler will be anything not included in the kit. Some kits vary. You need the intercooler core, front radiator, a reservior checkvalve (nice to have), pump, and all the tubing and fittings for that, the LIM and SC housing need to be machined, and the fuel rails must be customized or fuel injector spacers used. Most kits don't include either of these last two items. The ZZP short stack intercooler doesn't come with a fuel rail solution. That's extra, as is the machining of the LIM and SC. That intercooler will only allow a .1 or .2 inch drop in pulley diameter. It's about half as effective as a full intercooler. |
You didn't say what you found to be unimpressive about water injection.
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Unpredictable results. Sometimes great, sometimes not. Inconsistent enough not to be able to count on it or tune for it.
From a performance standpoint, unreliable at best. |
OK, i am getting in here a little late but here are my thoughts.
Andrew is doing the GT1 cam along with a top swap (cam is proven great with the top swaps i have seen). Andrew i liked your comment abotu not planning on 13's. With a top swap on that higher comp motor and the gt1 and a decent tune, i would say almost plan on 13's with just that. My next question is going to be what are you doing for exhaust, that is going to be your down fall. I truely dont think PEMS's are going to be right for you not on that higher comp motor. Just my thought As for water injection, i wouldnt do it. As for the SSIC..... ummmm..uhhhh. Might be something you would like. As for costs wren, i belive that with the SSIC you dont need to machine the supercharger and lim (almost 99% sure), but yes you have to find an injector solution, but doesnt he have injector spacers already?? not sure there So my thoughts. Top swap with GT1 cam.... going to need headers, almost a giving......but you maybe able to get away with pems and a 3 inch dp. Also think P&P lim, and blower. Hint Hint, WBS is having a sale on P&P blowers. I will start there and we can go from those thoughts |
If you want good flow through the core of ANY supercharger, the LIM and SC should be milled. That's assuming you want the best performance for the money you're spending. considering the cost of the SSIC, I'd say it's worth it.
Want to know how to reduce the temps of the intake charge by 'fixing' the supercharger? It's already posted if you search, but I'd be willing to refresh you here if you like. |
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
With a top swap on that higher comp motor and the gt1 and a decent tune, i would say almost plan on 13's with just that.
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
My next question is going to be what are you doing for exhaust, that is going to be your down fall. I truely dont think PEMS's are going to be right for you not on that higher comp motor. Just my thought
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
As for water injection, i wouldnt do it.
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
As for the SSIC..... ummmm..uhhhh. Might be something you would like. As for costs wren, i belive that with the SSIC you dont need to machine the supercharger and lim (almost 99% sure), but yes you have to find an injector solution, but doesnt he have injector spacers already?? not sure there
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
So my thoughts. Top swap with GT1 cam.... going to need headers, almost a giving......but you maybe able to get away with pems and a 3 inch dp. Also think P&P lim, and blower. Hint Hint, WBS is having a sale on P&P blowers.
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Ag, you may have missed my comments above while you replied to TJ.
What compression ratio are you planning on? I don't think that's been answered yet. If it's a top swap, you will indeed be running low boost to start. Let me know what you think about my comments below TJ's. |
Andrew I know you are asking about 2 forms of intercooling to reduce temps but what about simple home P&P of the SC inlet and outlet them selves? That’s very cheap compared to the two options at hand and would yield even greater results when combined with an IC or WI.
Ed |
Ed, that's EXACTLY what I was referring to above. ;)
His plan is screaming for that. But not for IC or WI. Anyone remember the thermal analysis stuff I posted? ;) |
That is why i mentioned the P&P of blower and lim. Because of its cooling effect. :lol:
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Originally Posted by willwren
Ag, you may have missed my comments above while you replied to TJ.
What compression ratio are you planning on? I don't think that's been answered yet. If it's a top swap, you will indeed be running low boost to start. Let me know what you think about my comments below TJ's. It is a topswap onto the L36 bottom end I'm contemplating. And I will be initially starting with a 4.2" pulley ("training wheels" :lol: ) If you could post links to the P&P (to save me the search), I'd appreciate it, thanks. |
Have you considered the SS kit from ZZP? Might be a little more expensive but...... you dont need the extra pullies, comes with a ported and polished lim and blower. Also you use the L36 heads, so i think switching back and forth would be easier. I dunno, just wondering if you did research on that idea.
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Ummm.....TJ.......read above. It's the SS we're talking about. It doesn't come with a bunch of pulleys or ported housings.
That's what we've been discussing this whole topic. |
What I'm contemplating could be called a "hybridized" zzp SS M90 / topswap.
It will use L67 heads and injectors / fuel rail, M90, appropriate sensors, vac lines and bracketing, etc. And yes, I do plan on P&Ping. But it will be driven using a system like the zzp SS M90 kit (i.e., offset MPS pulley, custom idler, and single longer serpentine belt to drive it all). This drive system will be partly "home-engineered," because the zzp kit as-is will not fit a pre-'99 H-body, due to fitment issues between their custom idler pulley and the front engine mount. Also, I think the S/C pulley belt wrap on that system could be improved with a relocation of the custom idler ;) . So basically, I'd be buying the zzp SS M90 offset hub/pulleys, but engineering the rest...with help, of course. (I decided to go this way on the S/C drive because I couldn't get a consensus as to whether the L67 HB could properly balance L36 internals) That said, in actual fact, I'm contemplating a three-way L36/L67/SS M90 hybrid. I'm investigating what it would take to engineer an adapter that will allow the M90 to mate to the L36 LIM...as you might recall from my scattered threads on this topic, I'm going to have to swap the M90 out on occasion, and I'd like that to be a quick operation ;) (This is the original reason I picked up the injector spacers) Want to know how to reduce the temps of the intake charge by 'fixing' the supercharger? It's already posted if you search, but I'd be willing to refresh you here if you like. |
Originally Posted by willwren
Let's start with a simplified model. This is an M62 (really no different for the
purposes of the debate than an M90) under normal operating (street) conditions. We'll ignore the track conditions for now, but we'll come back to it: http://www.williamwren.com/m62/M62therm5.gif What's the hottest surface? The INLET. Not the outlet. Why? Restriction/friction of airflow. To be honest, this is a very simple model. It doesn't have the cooling ports, and some of the conditions may be based on theory, rather than reality. So we take this data as a starting point, and try to refine the model (this analysis was done by a group of college engineering students at least 3 or 4 years ago. Fast forward to the current state of the Zilla: https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b.../extreme10.jpg See the little temperature strips? There are 9 of them on the SC, Nosedrive, TB, and LIM. Why? I wanted to know not only WHAT temperatures were typical in different driving conditions, but also HOW it heats up. What's hot first? Where does the heat start, and how does the SC react during heatsoak? Does the coolant actually HELP? So then I made a model. http://www.williamwren.com/M62/m62wgasket.jpg That was a long time ago, and for another purpose as well, but a good 3D model is the starting point for a good thermal analysis job. So I took everything I learned from the original thermal analysis (top image in this topic), and everything I learned from REAL data from my own car (coolant temps, stuck-on thermal temp strips, and IR heat analysis) in multiple conditions. Different ambient air temps, wet weather, dry weather, street conditions, long trips, and track. Now let's apply all THAT to the 3D model WITHOUT coolant flow (temps are typical on a warmed up engine after about 15 minutes of driving in ambient 60°F air, 200° LIM): https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b...tos/therm1.jpg The dark blue is constrained to 150°F (338Kelvin) to represent engine bay ambient temps, and the bottom surface is constrained to typical LIM temps. As you can see, the BOTTOM of the inlet is the hottest surface. This is what pre-heats your incoming air for you. Nice, huh? Now let's induce some coolant flow and kick up the incoming air temp a bit to REALLY see what's going on (85° ambient air, 180° coolant temp in the SC coolant ports, 250°F LIM temp): https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b...tos/therm2.jpg See the positive result in the inlet despite the increased IAT and LIM temps? Coolant flow controls it. Now to be honest, there are other factors at work here, but I think I've captured the critical data very well in these models. On a track, with sufficient cooling, you'll be OK. SC temps don't spike at the track until AFTER the run. But if you drive your car daily, you need the coolant. And you can STILL cool down between runs at the track. You've lost nothing. Ideal solution? A seperately cooled interface plate between the SC and LIM, that routes coolant (not engine coolant) through the plate beneath the SC, and through the SC to the TB. Something like this: http://www.williamwren.com/bonnevill...hermalflux.JPG Further incoming air temp improvements are the direct result of polishing your SC inlet. As a point of comparison: My Gen3 M62 inlet and TB run 15° cooler than Matt's Gen3 M90, despite the fact that I was moving far more air with a 2.0" pulley than his stock 3.8" pulley. This is a direct result of polishing the rough inlet surface left over from the casting process. This was after an extended high-throttle side-by-side run in 106°F ambient conditions. I hope I've answered the question from this topic, at least with regards to the L67's out there. The data is going to come out differently for L27's and L36's, as the inlets won't be as hot to begin with. But it's something to chew on. Long and short of it based on what I've learned on my own car and through thermal analysis: Normal driving conditions require the coolant to manage SC inlet temperatures Furthermore, blocking the coolant ports is no advantage at the track if you're cooling in the staging lanes between runs and icing the SC housing. Further links for a follow-along on some M90 and M62 porting: (SilverBullet's GenV, Harofreak's Gen3, my latest (last year's) Gen3 M62) http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...ic.php?t=64834 (Chadow427's Gen3 M90 and a couple throttle bodies) http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...ic.php?t=70473 |
Oh i see andrew. I was unsure if you were doing a complete top swap, or the SS kit. Now i see it is a combination of things.
If you want my opinions just pm me. |
Ag, see my reply on the previous page.
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Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
If you want my opinions just pm me.
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Yea, we could do that. But i was trying to get a clearer picture of what andrews doing before i comment. I dont want to confuse anyone.
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Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
Yea, we could do that. But i was trying to get a clearer picture of what andrews doing before i comment. I dont want to confuse anyone.
Back on topic, please. |
Yea, i totally agree with wren.
I dont know anything about top swaps, or anything and am definently not a expert so i am not going to comment anymore. Sorry for getting off topic, carry on |
This is getting close to ridiculous.
You SHOULD ask questions and contribute. That's the OTHER purpose of a Forum. Your questions and thoughts may trigger OTHERS. Can we get back on topic now please? If you have questions you want clarified, ask them here, even if you think they're stupid questions. |
Andy, I just came across this, something to think about. Just the core but a great start cheap
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.as...mode=1&smode=1 |
Will,
It occurs to me that I never thanked you for the info on S/C temps and porting/polishing. So, thanks! |
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