Ethanol For Me Please !! Free Horse Power !! - Page 2 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


Performance, Brainstorming & Tuning Talk about modifications, or anything else associated with performance enhancements. Have a new idea for performance/reliability? Post it here. No idea is stupid! (please use Detailing and Appearance for cosmetic ideas)

Reply
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-22-2007, 12:51 PM   #11
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montréal, QC
Posts: 1,374
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Foghorn is on a distinguished road
Default

Ethonal has almost half the BTU output as gasoline for the same volume. From a performance perspective, a fuel that has less thermal energy that is more difficult to light and slower burning isn't a thrilling alternative.

Cheers,
Foghorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 12:52 PM   #12
Senior Member
Posts like a Camaro
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Waterloo, NY
Posts: 809
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
swartlkk is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95naSTA
Also, would there be an issue with our fuel pump since high ethanol fuels conduct electricity?
What is your source for this information? I'm not saying it is wrong, but I have never heard this point in all of the ethanol related material I have read.
swartlkk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 12:58 PM   #13
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montréal, QC
Posts: 1,374
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Foghorn is on a distinguished road
Default

Here'* a different perspective on the Ethanol craze sweepping the US, this is a quote from Dennis Gartmann, a prominent US investment guru;

Quote:
WHAT ETHANOL CAN'T DO: The more we read about corn based ethanol, the more sceptical of it...nay, the more openly opposed to it... we become. We are, however, wise enough to know that the farm community, the ethanol industry itself, the public and the nation'* politicians love the notion of ethanol so much and believe in it so vehemently that it is a reality and it shall remain a reality until long, long into the future. We shall have to see all sorts of bankruptcies amongst the old and new ethanol producing organisation scattered about the country before this rush to "ethanol-ize" the country runs its course and ends in tears.

There are any number of reasons why we find ethanol production comical, not the least of which is that it would be enormously unprofitable now were it not for the fact that the farm lobby has been able to extricate all sorts of expensive price support mechanisms from the Congress. We'll not go into that this morning, leaving that to another time in the future. What we do find worthy of note today is the inherent losses of energy created as we move to make alcohol from corn. Simply put, and rounding to the nearest numbers for the sake of simplicity, we note that in producing 10 gallons of ethanol we need to expend the rough equivalent of 7 gallons of gasoline. That on the surface would look like a fine swap. The problem is that those same ten gallons of ethanol produce approximately 85,000 BTU'* of energy, while the 7 gallons of gasoline produce 125,000 BTUs! Thus the ten gallons of ethanol contain the same energy equivalent of only 6.75 gallons of gasoline. So if we follow this logic through (and if the numbers are correct... and we believe them to be so from a number of different sources we've accumulated over time), approximately 10.4 gallons of gasoline will end producing sufficient quantities of ethanol to deliver as much energy as... now follow this, please.... 10gallons of gasoline!

What is sad is that the figures we are using here are relatively optimistic. The figures could be, and probably shall be, much worse. Indeed, as we ran through the data over the past weekend (and given that we are travelling today we do not have access to the data, for it is back in our office), we noted that the figures did not include "costs" for the fuel used in the actual farming of the corn involved. Further, nothing was given to the petroleum needed to create the fertilise required, the pesticides nor the herbicides used. If those inputs are taken into consideration, the net loss of energy might be shockingly large. Will this matter? No, it will not. The Ethanol parade is in full regalia; the trumpets are trumpeting; the drums are drumming and the majorettes are smiling prettily as Congress, farmers and the American public is in love with the misbegotten belief that the US can grow its way out of energy dependence. Never ever underestimate the power of an ill-advised and ill-conceived notion to become blithely accepted by a gullible nation. It is our duty to understand the shortcomings of ethanol as it is presently presented, and to further understand that the US is going to push ahead with more and larger ethanol plants, requiring more and more corn to "fuel" them, at the expense of America'* livestock producers but to the benefit of America'* corn producers.
Cheers,
Foghorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 01:01 PM   #14
Senior Member
True Car Nut
 
95naSTA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Philly
Posts: 4,508
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
95naSTA is on a distinguished road
Default

I got that info from previous discussions about this topic and searching google to verify it before I posted.
95naSTA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 01:07 PM   #15
Senior Member
Posts like a Camaro
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Waterloo, NY
Posts: 809
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
swartlkk is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95naSTA
I got that info from previous discussions about this topic and searching google to verify it before I posted.
Source? Link?

I just google'd "Ethanol Conductivity" as well, but the first site stated otherwise... And none of the other links on the first few pages were on that subject... Again, I am not pointing fault, just trying to find out the truth behind it...
swartlkk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 01:16 PM   #16
Senior Member
True Car Nut
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,295
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
MyLittleBlackBird is on a distinguished road
Default

In response to Dennis Gartmann, who will not be here to respond to my thoughts....

He is simply talking about corn based ethanol. In the end, ethanol, or alcohol really, can be made from anything that can ferment. Corn, soybeans, wheat, barely, or pretty much anything that grows. It doesn't have to be any one source. Again, just my two cents.


*edit*
No need to add another post on here.

For the conductivity point, I believe that inline fuel pumps are readily available, should conductivity prove to be an issue. I'm not sure how much of a difference in conductivity there is between gasoline and ethanol...
MyLittleBlackBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 01:25 PM   #17
Senior Member
True Car Nut
 
95naSTA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Philly
Posts: 4,508
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
95naSTA is on a distinguished road
Default

95naSTA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 01:32 PM   #18
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montréal, QC
Posts: 1,374
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Foghorn is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLittleBlackBird
In response to Dennis Gartmann, who will not be here to respond to my thoughts....

He is simply talking about corn based ethanol. In the end, ethanol, or alcohol really, can be made from anything that can ferment. Corn, soybeans, wheat, barely, or pretty much anything that grows. It doesn't have to be any one source. Again, just my two cents.
\

You're quite right to point out there are other means of producing ethanol than from corn, but corn is where the US will focus its efforts.

Otherwise, the heat output and economic value from ethonal produced from harvests intended as feed are not at all strong. Ehtonal produced from harvest 'by-products' is a viable strategy, ehtonal from corn is a rediculous idea.

Cheers,
Foghorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 02:00 PM   #19
Senior Member
Posts like a Camaro
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Waterloo, NY
Posts: 809
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
swartlkk is on a distinguished road
Default

Well... In reference to ethanol conducting electricity, I think that many of those links are misleading. I believe that Ethanol itself is nonconductive, however, it has the capacity to absorb water which will make it more likely to conduct an electrical charge. In that respect, it may be fact, however, to what degree does the absorbed water increase the conductivity of the mass of fuel (either 100% ethanol + condensation or gasoline/ethanol blend + condensation)?
swartlkk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2007, 02:05 PM   #20
Junior Member
Posts like a Ricer Type-R
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
willwren is on a distinguished road
Default

The topic title "Free Horsepower" amuses me.

Read Foghorn'* post above:

Quote:
Ethonal has almost half the BTU output as gasoline for the same volume. From a performance perspective, a fuel that has less thermal energy that is more difficult to light and slower burning isn't a thrilling alternative.
I couldn't have said it better myself. And let'* keep sharp on dispelling the myth that higher octane is more 'powerful'. It isn't. It'* harder to ignite.
willwren is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ethanol users? This one's for you: willwren General GM Chat 28 06-23-2007 04:04 PM
Ethanol Acting as a Detergent...? Söy 1992-1999 9 05-23-2006 06:20 PM
ethanol gas? Hans General GM Chat 21 05-11-2006 02:24 PM
Ethanol Conversion? MACDRIVE General GM Chat 4 05-11-2006 03:05 AM
10 free horse power. Lots of pics ComfyCar Performance, Brainstorming & Tuning 67 08-26-2005 11:23 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:04 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.