EGR Block off idea
 

Today at our meet, we saw a 500 HP (crank) GP. It had a M112 blower, custom intercooler, etc. But the guys who are piecing it together, showed us the best way (they think) to block off an EGR. They block it off on the exhaust inlet side, and so there's no vacuum, they open up the pipe, so it gets cold air sucked in. They added a small filter, kinda like a oil cap breather. Think this would help guys? Jeffrey10x4, wren?

Thats the same setup as ZZP sells.

I ended up removing the EGR setup blocked off at exhaust manifolds with a ZZP blockoff plate and opened the hole up on another blockoff plate and bolted it to the lower intake manifold. You also need to remove the codes from the PCM doing it this way.

So in short- removing the entire setup is the best way-but if you have smog testing it is pretty much irreversable. The way your describing is the best way if you smog testing around you.

Hope that helps-Jeremiah

Yes that is the ZZP EGR blockoff setup, and it works very well. I would recommend it to anyone considering it.

Now I keep hearing about the '92 bonne's that keep burning exhaust valves do to haveing no EGR system. How does that relate to doing something such as this?

This is my problem with it as well. I know the gas you're recirculating is oxygen defficient, and therefore doesn't burn, it justh helps fill in the combustion chamber. But will adding cold, combustible air cause it to burn?

Yeah me and Jason were discussing this a lot in his dorm last night because for the longest time people have preached on how important the EGR is in protecting exhaust valves. Well the guys with the 500hp GTP told us that we should detatch the EGR tube from the exhaust manifold and block that hole in the manifold followed by putting a small oil cap filter in the EGR tube. This way the intake will be sucking clean air instead of hot exhaust gases. Ok, now my understanding is that the EGR sends unburnt gases to the intake at WOT for them to be burned as well as fill in the "extra" space in the cylinder to decrease temperature. So if you block off the manifold and allow clean/cooler air into the intake, don't you greatly increase the temps of the engine overall?

We need this explained to us please! I thought EGR = safe happy smiling engine.

I thought so too.

Not a bad idea, but you may need a custom burn on the PCM to make up for the lack of EGR, or you'll be setting codes and SES.

Well if we use the block off, but cut it open (so it doesn't create a vacuum) air still flows in, etc. Does the PCM detect the EGR temp? or only if the valve isn't working. Cause if it's activated it will still pull air, and the EGR valve wouldn't really know the difference.

EDIT: How did Jeffrey10x4 do his?

I dont understand how NOT pulling crappy exhaust back in through the intake can burn a valve.
I haven't had any problems with my COMPLETE EGR delete. And yes you must delete all codes from the PCM for the EGR system for a complete removal. To just run the blockoff plate-you dont need to touch the PCM

It lowers combustion temps a lot, because there isn't as much oxygen.

For the blockoff plate setup, you don't need to do anything to the PCM because the EGR is still flowing air through, just not hot dirty air. If you completely remove the EGR system you will need some PCM work done or it will not be happy and you will get some of those lights on your dash lit up.

13secGTP is right, on ZZP it says you don't need to worry about the PCM at all with their blockoff plate. But what is ZZP's plate? Just a piece of stainless steel?

Anyone else wanna jump in? I know jeffrey has a say, and what about you EGRless drivers?

I guess my concern is why the 92 bonnevilles keep burning out exhaust valves. Is it truly because they have no EGR system or something else?

Yup. I am not sure it is even stainless, but it may be. All it does is cover the hole where the EGR connects to the exhaust manifold, it doesn't have to be much. If you want a filter for the other end (which hopefully you do) you have to order it yourself, and it is something like $13. It is still a very nice setup, and keeps the engine nice and clean.

I agree...I'd love to hear more...

If I do this, I was thinking of just picking up a cheap APC oil line filter from Autozone. Why does ZZP sell a specific one?

To make money?

I phrased that wrong. Why, (comma...let your mind pause for a moment) does ZZP sell one?

Ok screw that, DOES ZZP sell one? :lol:

Yeah.... or intense does, it's like $5.... Prob only fits series II of course though cause all they do is them...

Can anyone post a pic of one blocked off so I can see if mine is?? Where is it located? It would explain alot if it has been....

You can see it all here:

http://www.zzperformance.com/zzp/pro...koff_plate.htm

Sweet...thanks, bud!! :wink:

ZZP says it messes with your gas mileage...anyone have an idea why?

Um I dont get it...
Why do people with EGRs block them, and people with out EGR's put them on?

I think the mileage suffers because of not using the recycled air, and the pressure of the exhaust, so your intake works that much harder.

EGR stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation. So what do you think it does? It recirculates exhaust through the engine. Is exhaust clean...no. The exhaust makes the blower, intake manifold, etc... in the engine dirty. So if you block it off none of that will be dirty anymore. We removed it on the GTP to keep the intercooler clean because according to Zooomer with the EGR connected the Intercooler core needs to be cleaned every 10,000 miles, without the EGR connected it only needs to be cleaned every 50-100,000 miles. A HUGE difference. So basically you take it off to keep the engine clean.

Because what does you exhaust have left in it...a little bit of fuel. When the exhaust is recirculated the engine can use the little amount of fuel it didn't use before over again, so you would get better gas mileage, not much better but a little bit. We didn't notice a loss in gas mileage at all in the GTP for some reason, if anything we noticed a gain. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

i think that air also has water in it from the incomplete combustion reaction, wouldnt that about negate the fuel left over?

Recently installed my ZZP EGR Bypass kit. All it is a 1/4" thidk square of aluminum with a drilled and tapped hole for the original bolt.
Now my intake will stay cool and clean. :banana:
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/383040/5

Oh.... no codes were set and the SES light has not come on. :lol:

I can feel the power.... :headbang:

I'm not worried at all about burnt exhaust valves......burn baby burn.. :bouncingflame:

I disconnected the EGR in all my other cars and haven't had any trouble over 30 years.

how much of a gain would i get with this because it looks extremely affordable and simple to do

I have to say (since this got resurrected again) that this is perhaps the dumbest idea for a Series 1 I've ever seen.

Start here:

http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...pic.php?t=6566

Anyone who would intentionally do this to their car is thinking about rebuilding, anyway, I suppose......or you better be. I would sooner go out and grind slots in my rotors with a dremel tool than do this. At least rotors are cheaper than a valve job.

Those that are doing this on Series 2's could learn from what the 92's learned. In time, it will get you. If you don't care, then go for it. Series 1 will get burned (literally and figuratively) sooner.

I would be remiss in my responsibilities to this Forum, and my own consience would suffer if I didn't make these comments.

Okay people lets get down to base facts here on this! I've been asked for my imput as an EGRLess Bonneville owner & Gm Partsman & ex-mechanic.

The EGR Valve is VERY IMPORTANT! Yes dbtk2 it does stand for "Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve". IT is there for "Emisions" too. On the Series 1 EGRless engine though, the lack of the EGR Valve causes pre-maturing burning of the Exhast Valves, as well as the cracking of Exhaust Manifolds due to the higher heat produced from the EGRless 3800 from lack of proper venting of said "heat". GM realized their mistake in 1992 & made sure the EGR Valve was installed once again on the 1993 3800 to prevent this problem. BTW! The ONLY reason GM even removed it in the first place was the 1992 3800 passed emissions w/o the EGR Valve. :wink:

Now I'm not going to agrue here with you dbtk2 or go head-to-head with Zooomer either. I will however state my own personal opinions here & let you all decide for yourselves on what to do with them though.

I see the EGR Valve as a two-fold device here. One function is as Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve to help output emissions of the exhaust gasses so that they are more evenly/throughly burned to prevent hydro-carbons from entering the atmosphere. The Second function of the EGR Valve is to vent the excess "Heat" generated by the exhaust gasses. It's this very "Heat" that burns the valves & cracks the manifolds. Now yes, the 3800 likes to run "hot" shall we say, as that is what is was designed to do for best optium performance according to GM.

We as Bonneville Owners & Performance Modification "Freaks" always try to improve on the "stock" 3800 to get more power & HP! :twisted: I believe blocking off the EGR Valve port for life is a bad thing in the end. Now, with that said, a short term "block off" for racing, etc MAY help with track times though. As for every day driving I can't see blocking off the EGR Valve as "helping" the performance & longevity of the 3800 engine though. I personally have had an EGRless 3800 & have personally seen what this engine can do to an Exhaust Valve & Exhaust Manifold, as I've changed them myself already on my own 92 SE. Because of this I started this thread: http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...pic.php?t=6566
To help others with the 92 EGRless 3800 from having to do what I did.

Well that's my http://www.bonnevilleattitude.com/fo...n_twocents.gif Take it, modify it, or just leave it!

Oh ya....ya...ya...and someone once told me years ago that removing the catalytic converter will burn your valves too.... :P

....it's been a tough year and sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to feed ones addictions to continuous performance improvement.
My headers have evaporated into an RESP contribution and the XBox funds went into a pair of glasses...sight being prioritized a little higher than gaming.

So it's off to the shop next week to extract the nasty catalytic converter. It will be the cheapest 10 hp gain yet. I will leave in the resonator and keep the stock mufflers because I don't believe it to rob a significant amount of power, the wife still likes mellow sounds.....and I'm thrifty (aka cheap).
If anyone tells me now that this will harm my engine in any way..... :bs:
You will suck my exhaust fumes. :dancing:

My CAT has been removed as it was a Performance Enhancement! I'm not talking about the CAT here though. The CAT is there strickly for EMISSIONS ONLY!

You got a dummy O2 yet?

Yes.

How do those things work? Isn't the PCM looking for a toggle, rather than a constant reading? I've never looked into them.

I don't know how it works.
It is simply an epoxy sealed plug that fits into the O2 connector and fools the PCM by giving the appropriate signal...resistance?...to indicate a functioning CAT. It's probably as simple as the IAT sensor fool resistor. If we knew, we probably wouldn't pay $35. for one. :wink:

Do you have yearly emissions testing in Albany, Will ?
...Sure I'm environmentally conscience but my vehicle will always be in better tune than the average and it bugs me to see the bigger trucks getting away with waaaay more exhaust emissions than any car........and besides, it's at least 10 almost free horsepower. :D

ONE car with the cat removed wont make that much of a difference in the enviroment, though it will smell for those traveling behind you.