95 SSEI - all series 1? what boost stock? - Page 2 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


Performance, Brainstorming & Tuning Talk about modifications, or anything else associated with performance enhancements. Have a new idea for performance/reliability? Post it here. No idea is stupid! (please use Detailing and Appearance for cosmetic ideas)

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Old 10-31-2002, 02:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSEi95
I got the same engine as you Willwren, or at least the same blower and coverings.

Just a side note, my roomate has a '97 Grand Marquis with the same v8 they put in the mustang GT'* and I can take him stock for stock, I know, we've tried.

ADTR deals with Crown Victoria'*/Grand Marquis as well and they do have similar engines but not exactly the same. The 4.6L'* in those engines are built for torque and have a few differences that do limit in what they can do without some major cash spent. Though I do know a guy out here personally who runs 14.2 N/A in a 2000 Crown Victoria with the 4.6L 2V. So it is possible, he spent like a good 4-5k of money on it acquiring PI heads from a 99GT Mustang, porting and polishing them and having them installed. The 98+ Grand Marquis/Crown Victoria'* make better power and have a little better engine.

-Hector
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Old 10-31-2002, 09:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren

The M62 is rated for 10psi of boost. During hot weather, with a stock intake the most you'll see is 7.5 to 8psi. A smaller pulley, modded intake, colder weather, water injection...all these things add boost. For each pound of boost you gain, you gain about 10hp. Considering the pulley OR water injection raises the boost by 2psi, it'* a pretty good deal. .
========================

How does water injection add boost?
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Old 10-31-2002, 09:19 PM   #13
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Hey, you gotta let me go out with my kids......it'* halloween! I'll offer some explanations later tonight!
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Old 11-01-2002, 04:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanCulkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by willwren

The M62 is rated for 10psi of boost. During hot weather, with a stock intake the most you'll see is 7.5 to 8psi. A smaller pulley, modded intake, colder weather, water injection...all these things add boost. For each pound of boost you gain, you gain about 10hp. Considering the pulley OR water injection raises the boost by 2psi, it'* a pretty good deal. .
========================

How does water injection add boost?
Ok, have you ever noticed how you can feel more power in foggy weather, or in a light rain? Water vapor actually DECREASES density. Air density depends on its temperature, its pressure and how much water vapor is in the air. So how does water injection benefit us if it DECREASES air density? We fool Mother Nature. Let'* look at the factors that affect air density.

Temperature:
The molecules that air is made of, Nitrogen, Oxygen, and other minor gasses, are moving around bouncing off of each other at incredible speeds. These speeds increase as the temperature increases, and the molecules push against each other, pushing apart. Put a specific amount of air in a balloon and heat it, it will expand because the air is trapped and cannot escape. It'* PUSHING against the balloon. Now put that same amount of air and put it in a box that is NOT airtight. The air expands, and some escapes. Now the density of the air in the box is lower.

Pressure:
Pressure, whether it be barometric or 'induced' by your supercharger, has an effect on air density. This variable is an easy one to imagine. As pressure increases, so does density. This is not an 'equal' or 1:1 relationship, as there are other factors that determine the density, such as the amount of water vapor or temerature of the air. In simple terms, if you take an equal volume of air in two tanks, at the same temperature and humidity, and compress one, you will increase the density in that tank. Easy. Your car will perform better at a lower altitude than a higher one, given equal temps and water vapor content.

Humidity:
Higher humidity actually DECREASES air density. This might sound bad for our selfish horsepower purposes at first, but there'* a little trick involved. If your two tanks of equal temp air at the same pressure were measured for air density when one tank was at 80% humidity and the other at 40%, the tank at 40% would have a SLIGHTLY higher density. It wouldn't be double. Humidity only has a small effect on the density of air, and we'll take advantage of this fact right now. Dip your hand in a bucket of warm water on a warm breezy day. Your hand cools off as the water evaporates. The latent heat properties of evaporating water is what we're after here. Since the amount of humidity in the air has a relatively small effect on the air'* density, but the temperature has a much greater effect, we take that more humid air and cause it to evaporate under pressure in the intake to cool the surrounding air and INCREASE the air density. Tricky, and it works. By cooling the intake with evaporating water vapor, you cool the air by slowing down the molecules, and the result is increased air density.

Results:
The water is injected into the intake, is evaporated, and cools the surrounding air, increasing the air density. This increase in air density is detected by the MAF sensor, which allows more fuel to be delivered thru the injectors, as long as the O2 sensor says you're not running too rich. It delivers the extra fuel in order to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio. More fuel, and the air that it needs to combust equals more power. The added benefits are a cooler running engine, since water injection can cool your intake by as much as 60, cleaner valves and other engine internals (water vapor removes deposits), and less of a chance for detonation. Another side benefit may be that you can run a lower octane fuel with less danger of detonation or knock.

There are some people who scoff at the use of water injection. Don't join them. Our WWII fighters and bombers had higher service ceilings than any other country because we ran supercharged engines with water injection. Water injection has been used by professional car racing since 1913. The biggest thing holding most people back is the complicated systems or the price of them. There are several commercial systems available. The good ones run $600 to $800. There are several ways to make a do-it-yourself kit, but there are dangers involved. You need to be sure that no water can be delivered to the intake if the engine isn't running. Hydrolock makes things go CRACK and BOOM. This is really the only possible detractant to a water injection system, so if you can find a way to prevent this, you're in bizniss.

My water injection system is quite complicated. Since the most expensive component in most commercial systems is the centrifugal pump that'* used to deliver water, I decided to use my air compressor already built in to the car to pressurize a water tank. I started out ahead of the game, thanks to the foresight of a few Pontiac Engineers. My first prototype gave me an increase of almost 2 pounds of boost. I'm still tinkering with my final version.

No, I will NOT sell kits. I would have to spend WAY too much time creating them, and in order to pass them off to you guys at a good savings, I'd really have to sacrifice. I WILL tell anyone that wants to know how I did it. Just about anybody can.

Finally, the NA cars will not benefit from this as much as the SC cars. With the SC, we start with the higher density from the water injection, then compress it further. That doesn't mean it can't benefit the NA cars, because there are so many other benefits, but the increased air density benefits will be lower.

Class dismissed
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Old 11-01-2002, 06:52 PM   #15
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Guess I freaked everyone out with that.

Sorry guys. I won't do it again. Ty mode off!
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Old 11-01-2002, 10:23 PM   #16
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Will.. my boost on my SSE is high JATO rockets ( 2 of them) strapped to me trunk lid .....lite and whooooooooooooooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooo
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Old 11-01-2002, 10:27 PM   #17
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We gotta talk......I might have to turn off my H2O injection during a drought year. You might have a good option there! I still have military connections....
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Old 11-03-2002, 04:55 PM   #18
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Humidity only has a small effect on the density of air, and we'll take advantage of this fact right now. Dip your hand in a bucket of warm water on a warm breezy day. Your hand cools off as the water evaporates. The latent heat properties of evaporating water is what we're after here. Since the amount of humidity in the air has a relatively small effect on the air'* density, but the temperature has a much greater effect, we take that more humid air and cause it to evaporate under pressure in the intake to cool the surrounding air and INCREASE the air density. Tricky, and it works. By cooling the intake with evaporating water vapor, you cool the air by slowing down the molecules, and the result is increased air density.

====

OK.

===

Results:
The water is injected into the intake, is evaporated, and cools the surrounding air, increasing the air density. This increase in air density is detected by the MAF sensor, which allows more fuel to be delivered thru the injectors, as long as the O2 sensor says you're not running too rich. It delivers the extra fuel in order to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio. More fuel, and the air that it needs to combust equals more power.

===========

Right, but that doesn't mean more boost. I agree that a colder 7psi contains more moles of oxygen than a hotter 7psi. But that doesn't turn 7psi into 9 psi.

In fact, being that the adiabatic and compressor efficiency heating of the air by the supercharger is likely going to achieve more of the cooling, one may expect a tad *less* boost, though I doubt you would see it.

The viscosity of air does change with temperature. Perhaps that could be the reason? Is the compressor map of the SC that drastically different with temperature change? But the problem I see there is that I would think (I could be wrong) that most of the joule transfer from the latent heat of evaporization of the water happens after the SC blades - I mean, if the efficiency if this thing is only 60% or so, on an 80 degree day after 7psi, you're looking at probably 170 degrees or more after the blades.

Are you sure it was the water injection that increased your boost?

============


The added benefits are a cooler running engine, since water injection can cool your intake by as much as 60, cleaner valves and other engine internals (water vapor removes deposits), and less of a chance for detonation. Another side benefit may be that you can run a lower octane fuel with less danger of detonation or knock.

========

Right, I believe this has more to do with the increased specific heat of the mixture, it reduces peak combustion temperatures, hence wards off the evil detonation. It'* similar to running richer, but you need less water to accomplish it.

==========

There are some people who scoff at the use of water injection. Don't join them.
=====

I won't! I do believe water injection will help in some circumstances.

========
===============

My first prototype gave me an increase of almost 2 pounds of boost. I'm still tinkering with my final version.

==========

I believe you that you've seen a 2psi increase, but I still don't understand why. Did you change anything else at the same time?

==========

Finally, the NA cars will not benefit from this as much as the SC cars. With the SC, we start with the higher density from the water injection, then compress it further. That doesn't mean it can't benefit the NA cars, because there are so many other benefits, but the increased air density benefits will be lower.
========

If the NA cars were running a higher compression ratio, then they'd find water injection valuable.

Thanks!

Dan
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Old 11-03-2002, 07:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanCulkin
Right, but that doesn't mean more boost. I agree that a colder 7psi contains more moles of oxygen than a hotter 7psi. But that doesn't turn 7psi into 9 psi.

In fact, being that the adiabatic and compressor efficiency heating of the air by the supercharger is likely going to achieve more of the cooling, one may expect a tad *less* boost, though I doubt you would see it.

The viscosity of air does change with temperature. Perhaps that could be the reason? Is the compressor map of the SC that drastically different with temperature change? But the problem I see there is that I would think (I could be wrong) that most of the joule transfer from the latent heat of evaporization of the water happens after the SC blades - I mean, if the efficiency if this thing is only 60% or so, on an 80 degree day after 7psi, you're looking at probably 170 degrees or more after the blades.

Are you sure it was the water injection that increased your boost?


Dan
Ok, you have to keep in mind that I already have a heavily modded intake. Now take into account that we're talking compression and ratios here. And third, take into account that I'm using a fairly accurate gauge at best. If you increase the VOLUME of air at the plenum, by say 20% (this is just an example....I have no idea what % change I'm getting), what happens to the pressure after the blower? I'd have to pull my old books out to do the math. It'* not a linear scale. I'm injecting the water about 4" in front of the plenum.....at WOT, it'* vaporizing nicely before it ever reaches the vanes.....even if it doesn't evap until the manifold, it'* still cooling and raising in density. This is where the boost gauge takes it'* reading from. I got 2psi more boost the first time I tried a simple siphon system. I let the intake draw water from a bottle through a small tube.

An interesting note here:

I get the same amount of boost on a cold, wet winter day as I got with water injection on a hot dry summer day. Now add alcohol.
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Old 11-03-2002, 07:58 PM   #20
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Now take into account that we're talking compression and ratios here.
------

Yup!

---

And third, take into account that I'm using a fairly accurate gauge at best. If you increase the VOLUME of air at the plenum, by say 20% (this is just an example....I have no idea what % change I'm getting), what happens to the pressure after the blower? I'd have to pull my old books out to do the math. It'* not a linear scale.

------

Yup! For simplicity, let'* just say that the cooling happens between the MAF and the SC blades. By cooling the air before it gets to the SC blades by ~60 deg (or whatever), 20%(or whatever) more air has to pass by the MAF. I agree completely.

-----

I'm injecting the water about 4" in front of the plenum.....at WOT, it'* vaporizing nicely before it ever reaches the vanes.....even if it doesn't evap until the manifold, it'* still cooling and raising in density. This is where the boost gauge takes it'* reading from.

-----

Right - raising in *density*, not in pressure, which is what the boost guage is reading! Cooler air before the SC means cooler air *after* the SC, too.

------

I got 2psi more boost the first time I tried a simple siphon system. I let the intake draw water from a bottle through a small tube.

An interesting note here:

I get the same amount of boost on a cold, wet winter day as I got with water injection on a hot dry summer day. Now add alcohol.
-------

Hmmm...we'll figure out the why at some point. If it works, you can't argue with it

Dan
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