4T80E/Turbo-S/C... TIME FOR A NEW THREAD? - Page 10 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


Performance, Brainstorming & Tuning Talk about modifications, or anything else associated with performance enhancements. Have a new idea for performance/reliability? Post it here. No idea is stupid! (please use Detailing and Appearance for cosmetic ideas)

Reply
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-02-2007, 08:00 AM   #91
Senior Member
Posts like a Camaro
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,108
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
chadow427 is on a distinguished road
Default

Congrats! I can't wait to see this thing on the road.
chadow427 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 01:20 PM   #92
Senior Member
Posts like a Turbo
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hanoverpark/palatine IL, wrenchin' and cursin'
Posts: 247
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Turbocharged400sbc is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontiacjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
good score on that trans jeff...i wish i had your luck lately i've been looking for a decent 80E from a 98 aurora car for test fitment and the converter (midwest converter suggested i go this route as they gaurantee that they can convert it to Carbon fiber TTC material Jim also metioned something about a difference between the sprag setups but i havent seen a N* vs aurora converter cut apart (yet lol)

i wanted to ask the 3.71 fdr is the N* FDR on 00+ right? what is needed to get er closer to 4 to 1?

also recently while at the Jyard i took the range switch off a 96 80E (i was just screwing around) and it looks like with a spare selector shaft you could move it to alongside the shifter itself and get it out of the way of exhaust heat...

I also mocked up my buddy eric'* set of PS headers on one of my spare blocks and took some measurements from the belhousing face to the headers in several spots...

if you would like the pics/specs let me know and i'll email em to ya...it looks like it'd be close but PS headers may clear the shift linkage....which woul sure be nice when we end up throwing one in eric'* Riviera

keep it up buddy, i cant wait to see more...
The 3.71 came in the STS and ETC with the 300hp engine. I thought there were only two FDRs, but found out there are like 8 from 2.7x up to 3.71. I thought there was a 4.10, but couldn't find anything about it. There'* a 3.48, 3.05, 3.11, and more.
i was actually wondering if there would be benifits to the 3.73 in the rear and a 3.48 to keep the transmissions from shifting at the same time right now they shift one right after the other....it F*&king seamless! lol and the front (while really heavy the car is 51/49 weight dist f/r) trans wont have the weight transfer on launch so a taller gear would help on top end (Al dreams of taking the 442 to the salt flats )

one thing i considered is to have us get two 3.73 geared units and have a sepereate strip/street setup for the front trans shift points...if we have traction problems up front

you realise how heavy the 442 will be with two 4T80E'* two Turbocharged 3800'*

i'm thinking the next time we run Al'* skinny *** across the scales the car weighs 4600 lbs (and we ran 1.90 60'* at 4330) but with alot more power

4wd rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontiacjeff
I am not using headers, but turbocharging, so I will have a custom crossover pipe I'll make anyway, to clear the shifter and switch.
oh i just said that so if anyone is considering this in their ride they can get an idea of what needs to be modified for PS headers (i only took a couple of measurements) if you want pics posted i can (for future swappers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontiacjeff
I am confused about the converters... Dacco says they pin the stock N* viscous clutch so it'* always locked on engagement. I would like a real clutch, too. Who have you talked to??? Midwest Converters? Contact info?
talked to a buddy and he suggested them they can do anything he said there was a good chance they can machine a setup similar to the aftermarket double and triple disk (TD truck) TCC assembly and fit it in the 4t80e converter...

he suggested i bring em a core converter and a couple of guys will cut it open and tinker with it (who knows if the LS4 equipped W bodies have the 80E with the viscous clutch?) they are always looking for new products to sell besides depending on what they can do we'll be buying two

i'm also thinking it would be nice to switch the converter to a 6 lug arangment

what are your thoughts oin the differences in the 4L80E and the 4T80E (internals wise) i have rebuilt a L not long ago

give em a call they are right next to rt20 in rockford (they did a couple of converters for me when i worked at Wayne'* World a TH400 and 4l80e)

Midwest Racing Converters
"Good Enough...isnt Good Enough"
3535 Kishwaukee St
Rockford IL 61109
(815) 229-9808
fax (815) 229-9874

depending whether we sacrafice the built 4T60E from the front of the 442 into this salvage title 98 Lumi is how soon the 80e is purchaced for test fitting in a first gen W
i already can get a 75$ core unit for spare hard parts and i'll be grabbing the next 80E converter i can grab easily to have them tinker with
Turbocharged400sbc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 06:12 PM   #93
Senior Member
Posts like a Turbo
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 368
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
pontiacjeff is on a distinguished road
Default

Alot of quotes, hope I don't get too confusing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
good score on that trans jeff...i wish i had your luck lately i've been looking for a decent 80E from a 98 aurora car for test fitment and the converter (midwest converter suggested i go this route as they gaurantee that they can convert it to Carbon fiber TTC material Jim also metioned something about a difference between the sprag setups but i havent seen a N* vs aurora converter cut apart (yet lol)
I bought a converter from Transmission Crafters in Albany, GA. They built a Allante converter (B23) that uses a conventional clutch, not the viscous. All the 4T80 converters are furnace braized, so they can't tweak the fins at all (more stall). I called Midwest, they wanted 195.00. I paid 110.00 for the Allante converter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
also recently while at the Jyard i took the range switch off a 96 80E (i was just screwing around) and it looks like with a spare selector shaft you could move it to alongside the shifter itself and get it out of the way of exhaust heat...
You saw the pics, I built the rear header to clear the shifter and switch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
I was actually wondering if there would be benifits to the 3.73 in the rear and a 3.48 to keep the transmissions from shifting at the same time
Sounds intriguing. I'm sure it would work since the two drivelines are not connected. Obviously you couldn't do it on a real 4wd. What you really need is a stand alone transmission control module to run both transmissions simultaneously. That way they are both commanded to shift at the exact same time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
you realise how heavy the 442 will be with two 4T80E'* two Turbocharged 3800'*
The -80 weighs about 50lbs more than the -60/-65.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
4wd rules
You got that right! I can;t wait for the day when I start building my AWD 6000. I am planning a 3900SFI/turbo for it. Hopefully about 400whp(?!?!?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
i'm also thinking it would be nice to switch the converter to a 6 lug arangment.
It was hard enough to get the 4-bolt drilled into the 3800 flywheel. I had to notch the counterweight in two places and add back the weight with the mig welder (see the pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
what are your thoughts oin the differences in the 4L80E and the 4T80E (internals wise)
two totally different transmissions, no interchangeable parts. Not like the old TH400/TH425

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
depending whether we sacrafice the built 4T60E from the front of the 442 into this salvage title 98 Lumi is how soon the 80e is purchaced for test fitting in a first gen W
i already can get a 75$ core unit for spare hard parts and i'll be grabbing the next 80E converter i can grab easily to have them tinker with
My next is to buy a junk 97-up W-body k-member and try the 3800/4T80 in it. I'd like to sell a package to the hi-hp GTP guys, with LSD. BTW, The LS4 W-bodies use a new 4T65E-HD with 5-pinion planetaries and beefed-up internals, GM billet input shaft, output shaft, etc.
pontiacjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 10:04 PM   #94
Senior Member
Posts like a Camaro
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,108
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
chadow427 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontiacjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
I was actually wondering if there would be benifits to the 3.73 in the rear and a 3.48 to keep the transmissions from shifting at the same time
Sounds intriguing. I'm sure it would work since the two drivelines are not connected. Obviously you couldn't do it on a real 4wd. What you really need is a stand alone transmission control module to run both transmissions simultaneously. That way they are both commanded to shift at the exact same time!
Wouldn't it be better for them to shift at seperate times, that way there is always a drivetrain putting power down?
chadow427 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2007, 02:13 AM   #95
Senior Member
Posts like a Turbo
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 368
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
pontiacjeff is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadow427
Quote:
Originally Posted by pontiacjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc
I was actually wondering if there would be benifits to the 3.73 in the rear and a 3.48 to keep the transmissions from shifting at the same time
Sounds intriguing. I'm sure it would work since the two drivelines are not connected. Obviously you couldn't do it on a real 4wd. What you really need is a stand alone transmission control module to run both transmissions simultaneously. That way they are both commanded to shift at the exact same time!
Wouldn't it be better for them to shift at seperate times, that way there is always a drivetrain putting power down?
Maybe? I don't know. Hot Rod magazine, way back in 1987 or '88, had an article on a twin engine Honda CRX. They were identical CRX engines/transaxles. I'm not sure, but I think they were automatics. I remember distinctly, and the writers were quite surprised, that one engine was slightly overdriven by the other. It could be the very same principle I expect to put in use with the twin-charging, and that is this: when two engines are used, neither has to work as hard, and one pushes the other.

Which brings us back to my project....
pontiacjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2007, 02:39 AM   #96
Senior Member
Posts like a Turbo
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 368
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
pontiacjeff is on a distinguished road
Default

(I am killing time waiting for an ebay auction the end... I have 44 minutes, so sit back, sip some hot chocolate and enjoy)

When the */c is sucking in atmosperic pressure, it has to overcome any/all restrictions in the intake tract - the MAF, the throttle blade, the upturn in the blower entrance, the flattening-widening of the roof of the blower - then, the air at atmospheric pressure gets pulled into the rotors and sqeezed out below. All of this work is done by the crankshaft via the belt and pulleys.

With a turbo providing pressurized air into the blower, the blower doesn;t have to work as hard to pull the air in. AND actual pumping losses inherent in a */c are reduced to nearly nothing due to the turbo "pushing" the rotors.

Here'* an example everyone can understand:

As a kid, I remember playing with a pinwheel, you know, the colorful plastic wheel on the end of a plastic stick. In the house, or on a still day, the only way to get that thing to spin (*/c) was to flick the end of the blades with your finger. The thing would spin about three turns and stop (let'* face it, the tolerances on that thing were like .062" on both sides... they had a butt-load of runout!). If you could flick thatthing over and over you could get it going pretty fast, but as soon as you stopped flicking it, it would go another three turns and stop. This is the */c. As soon as the crank stops turning, the */c stops, too.

NOW, something really cool would happen if you started running thru the house holding that pinwheel out in front of you - the dad-blamed thing would start spinning on it'* own!

WOW, COOL!!!!

When you introduced moving air in front of the wheel, it would spin all on it'* own! And the faster you went, the faster it would spin. You could never get it spinning that fast just by flicking it with your finger (nor would it accelerate as fast).

I anticipate, and expect to demonstrate, that a turbo feeding a */c as little as 1psi above atmospheric pressure will show significantly more power gain than 1psi boost would normally provide, based almost entirely on the reduction of pumping losses in the */c.

What does this mean in the engine? A roots-type */c is one of the LEAST effective power adders, taking away a huge percent of power.

Name:  M90power.gif
Views: 6
Size:  25.7 KB

At average boost levels, the M90 can use as much as 50hp. Some very knowledgeable folks in the 3800 market claim that at extremely high boost (25-up), the M90 can siphon off as much as 150hp just to turn it!

Ever hear about the draft? Not WWII, Korea, or Vietnam, but NASCAR! The car in the front uses less power to stay there b/c the car behind him is pushing him! (the car behind also has the added benefit of reduction in wind drag across the front of his car!)

So, what does thismean in the engine? Since the */c is not working as hard, it does not produce as much heat. That'* good. And since it is squeezing air that is already squeezed, it doesn't just add boost, it multiplies boost.

Ex: 10psi turbo pressure and 10psi */c prssure DOES NOT EQUAL 20psi. It goes like this:

10psi turbo = 1.67 pressure ratio (p/r) is 14.7psi atmosperic pressure + 10psi boost pressure = 24.7psi total pressure. Divide that by 14.7psi atmoshperic pressure to getthe p/r = 1.666666 or 1.67. Now, take that and increase it by ianother 1.67 p/r and you get this:

1.67 * 1.67 = 2.79 * 14.7 (atmospheric pressure) = 41psi total pressure - 14.7psi atmospheric = 26.3psi boost pressure.

10 + 10 doesn't equal 20, it equals 26.3! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

(31 minutes and 12 secs left)

The reason not too many people try this is b/c it is way too easy to make insane amounts of boost! If the turbo is not carefully controlled, it can get crazy.

At shown on the chart above and quoted from some bright guys, at 26psi on all */c, you'd be losing 150+hp in pumping losses! And producing insane amounts of heat! If you had a turbo doing all that work by itself, the same thing would happen - you wouldn't have the extreme power loss, but you would have an insane amount of heat requiring a huge air-air intercooler and it'* long charge air piping, or expensive an liquid-air intercooler with it'* plumbing, coolant pump, heat exchanger, and all the necessary hardware. Not to mention a turbo getting to 26psi would take a day and a half! That'* some serious lag.

I can;t wait to start experimenting with this. There is alot more than I have typed about here. Like turbo size and */c speed. Oh, well, time to go bid on the turbo in question!

Hope you enjoyed this (or at least, I didn;t bore you to tears, but then if it was that bad, you probably didn;t read it all anyway and certainly didn;t get to this sentence, so no apologies necessary. All right then....)
pontiacjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2007, 02:47 AM   #97
Senior Member
True Car Nut
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,816
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
GonneVille is on a distinguished road
Default

Slight hijack. Steve Mosler'* original TwinStar Eldorado used two different years of N* motor, with different gearing in each 4T80. He said the shifts took just slightly longer than normal, because the computers couldn't figure out the shift while it was still accelerating. But the difference in shiftpoints helped the car'* performance. He also said that the sound of the dueling engine notes was really freaky.
The Twinstars he built for sale all used matched drivetrains, though, but you still get mis-matched shifts because they couldn't be commanded together.
GonneVille is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2007, 02:58 AM   #98
Senior Member
Posts like a Turbo
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 368
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
pontiacjeff is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonneVille
Slight hijack. Steve Mosler'* original TwinStar Eldorado used two different years of N* motor, with different gearing in each 4T80. He said the shifts took just slightly longer than normal, because the computers couldn't figure out the shift while it was still accelerating. But the difference in shiftpoints helped the car'* performance. He also said that the sound of the dueling engine notes was really freaky.
The Twinstars he built for sale all used matched drivetrains, though, but you still get mis-matched shifts because they couldn't be commanded together.
That is interesting.
pontiacjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2007, 03:00 AM   #99
Senior Member
Posts like a Turbo
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 368
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
pontiacjeff is on a distinguished road
Default

BTW, I won the turbo.

Chinese knock-off, but for $137.50, if it'* a POS, I'll just use it as a door stop.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=250079004779
pontiacjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2007, 03:04 AM   #100
Senior Member
True Car Nut
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,816
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
GonneVille is on a distinguished road
Default

Interesting turbo. You got full specs on it?
GonneVille is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thread locker vs. Thread sealant eazhar 1992-1999 3 03-23-2013 04:43 AM
Turbo L67 Ciera International.....and Turbo L36 S10 Bonneville92V688 Lounge 10 10-05-2007 03:43 PM
Transmission tuner for 4t80e sahensley Bonneville GXP/ Northstar Powered Cars 10 05-25-2005 07:07 PM
4t80e pbj General GM Chat 3 07-28-2003 06:23 AM
911 Twin Turbo vs. me w/ only ONE turbo Burgundy_Boat General GM Chat 11 06-28-2003 09:34 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:44 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.