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Old 12-30-2006, 11:35 PM   #51
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We should remember that the country of Iraq was once several smaller countries, unti lthe Brits shoved them all together. It has always been unstable, and only the force of arms and threat of torture and death has ever held it together.
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:47 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
That is utterly ridiculous. If you think the US should not be so involved elsewhere in the world, what justified US intervention to begin with? If democracy cannot be imposed on a group by military action, why did the US go there to begin with (now that the issue of WMDs is known to be fallacious at best, manufactured at worst)?
Not as ridiculous as you choose to think. The rational is pretty simple and extends back to the first Gulf war.

1.) Iraq attacked one of our allies (Kuwait) and threatened to attack another (Saudi Arabia.) We retaliated directly, resulting in a considerable number of happy Saudi and Kuwait souls who now know we live up to our treaty obligations.

2.) The cease fire agreement signed at Safwan by the representatives of Iraq had the provisions for how Iraq was to conduct itself in future (Specificly regards to the no-fly zones established, disarmament of certain weapons types, compliance with sanctions imposed by the UN, etc. etc.)

3.) Sadam violated that agreement, flagrantly and repeatedly. He kept the contraband weapons he had (No kidding, what the heck do you think he gassed the Kurds with) and continued to purchase weapons that were under embargo. (Like the Chinese cruise missles launched into Kuait in the opening days of Iraqi Freedom...those were made and purchased AFTER the cease fire at Safwan was signed and in direct violation of the UN sanctions in place.)

4.) Sadam also continued to pump out the propoganda about what he was building to the other middle eastern nations, while obstructing the investigation by the UN as to whether he was complying with the resolutions regarding disarming. Note, That he had WMD is not debatable, it is FACT. He used chemical weapons repeatedly on Iran and on the Kurds. The burden of proof is not on the US or any other nation to prove he still had them. The burden was on Iraq to prove that they NO LONGER had them.

So, in short, Sadam broke the cease fire that put a halt to the first war, that he himself started by invading Kuait. 10 years of waiting for him to comply while he rearmned for round two was all the justification we ever needed to go back and clean his preverbial clock.
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Old 12-30-2006, 11:54 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clm2112
So, in short, Sadam broke the cease fire that put a halt to the first war, that he himself started by invading Kuait. 10 years of waiting for him to comply while he rearmned for round two was all the justification we ever needed to go back and clean his preverbial clock.
game and set, thus far.

saddam needed to be ousted. we did that. but the people he put down decided they wanted to turn the tables completely. thats cool. the average moral IQ of the entire world upped about 3 points with him gone.

but we ousted him. we removed the government that was in place. it would have been immoral of us to leave a vacuum in its place. more than that, it would be immoral to help put a government in its place and not give it the means to sustain itself or the time to orient itself.
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:01 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
I think it is more likely to plunge the country further into civil war as opposed to taming the insurgency.
I can agree with this. Iraq is split up in to many different ethnic groups. Some did not like Saddam, while some supported him. I see his death as a catalyst for future events.

The groups there don't get along with each other. They never have. WIth the US there, it only increases the tension, and it will do so as long as we do not take the time to actually understand what makes these groups tick. We are stuck there, but we need to change the way we handle things over there.

Saddam was a bad guy, but things should have been different from the start of the war. Nothing can change that now however.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-31-2006, 12:09 AM   #55
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i cant even describe all the elaborate tortures in my mind that they could have applied to him, lol, but anyway i saw a video of him being hung and personally i tihnk they should have burned every square inch of his skin, injecting him with adrenaline if he ever passe dotu form the pain, then cut off every toe and finger, sealed the wounds with hot irons, dippe dhim in a mild acid so it itd burn like hell wihtout killing, then subject him to a complete assault on the sense, subject him to constant sitching between pain and pleasure on smell, sight, toughcht, taste, and whatever the 5th sense is, like i mean some sort fo elaborate aparatus that would just completely demolish a person mentsally
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Old 12-31-2006, 01:05 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwakamud
game and set, thus far.
Thank you.

It would seem a few of our members fell asleep during both "Current Events" and "History" classes. Sometimes a little reminder of how the rest of the world works is needed, lest too many people revise history to suit their own tastes and political leanings.

Here'* a few other relavent "blasts from the past" that should be remembered by all...

There currently exists, and has existed since November 4, 1979, a state of war between the United States and the Islamic Republic of Iran. The Algiers Accords (January 19, 1981) have not been fullfilled by Iran. They did release the hostages taken, but still occupy the US Embasy in Tehran, which is still considered US Territory. (The occupation of which is an act of war in every nation.) Hence the trade embargo, and all other such niceties, are still in force.

Also, all of the UN nations involved in the Korean war, are still at war (whether decared or not) with the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea (aka North Korea) The cease-fire signed at Panmunjeom in 1953 did not end the conflict, though it did halt the shooting war. Since then, no treaty has ever been signed to formally end the conflict between North and South Korea. So, should the fruit cake running the North ever order his cannon-cockers on the DMZ to open fire on Seoul, then we are right back into it again. It should also be noted that back in August of this year, the afore mentioned nut-case declared the cease fire agreement of 1953 null and void...so in other words, they feel free to open fire at their own discretion, to them the DMZ doesn't exist, nor does the entire nation of South Korea.

The world continues to be a crazy place.

As to the comment that I am suggesting something "immoral", I disagree. What I am saying is that it needs to be understood that the US defended our allies, and by extension ourselves, from a threat that Sadam Hussein, the "elected" leader of Iraq perpetrated. We have NO obligation to the people of Iraq. We OWE them nothing. If they ask for our help putting their mess back together, then we can offer it at our discretion.
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:01 AM   #57
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Ummm, Guys, I am going to jump in here, please lets keep this one on topic....This thread is not here to discuss forieign policy or what you believe is right and wrong. This thread was created because one of the world'* most infamous men was executed.

I really don't want to have to lock this...Watch your step!
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Old 12-31-2006, 03:42 AM   #58
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Death vid is kinda creepy, his face is like +
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