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Old 11-29-2007, 09:33 PM   #11
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or is it possible that higher-class families afford better test prep? and consequently score better on standardized tests?

i challenge the assertion that poor test scores are an indicator of bad education. theres no evidence to support that assertion, and there have been numerous studies to show that the opposite is the case. these tests have been shown to have at least one bias and no expert in the field of education supports the opinion that tests are the best method of grading available.

many schools and universities have gone to the way of thinking that gives much more credence to peer reviews and faculty reviews than to scores on tests. the idea that you can extract out a persons intelligence (when few people can even agree on what intelligence is) or educational quality (critical thinking is not particularly prized on most standardized tests) with a number from a test is just absurd.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:40 PM   #12
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how about the fact that one of the side effects of this testing is that kids are missing valuable instruction time to take them?
The tests only take about 1 day. Our education system has wasted far more time than that watching "Night at the Museum"... ask me how I know.

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and your underlying assumption that these tests represent intelligence is just mind-blowing to me.
They are not perfect, that much has been established. We have also established that test scores will fluctuate with demographics. All that aside, I do believe it provides a relative level of intelligence, yes. As I said earlier, I believe that an intelligent person will seek out knowledge and therefore should score well on a test such as this.

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its inconceivable that someone can be smart and not test well? test-day jitters are just a folk-legend? and based on this standardized test were going to say that the education system is failing him?'
A student can absolutely have a bad day and not test well. I tested twice, the first time to get a feel for things, the second to improve my score. I had a bad day the second time and scored the same as the first. I am confident that I could have scored at least 2 points higher but I did not take it again. No, the education system did not fail me that day, I failed myself. Overall though, my score still provided colleges with a relative number.

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and saying that low-income families are unable to provide quality education is naive at best. according to that, the poorest states should score the lowest on standardized tests. but all of the stats say otherwise.
Low-income families can provide a fine education I am sure, it is the low-income community that is to blame. As for the proposed statistical model, I would have to see proof of that model to accept it.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:41 PM   #13
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if America'* education system is so bad, why is the answer standardized tests? we already place more emphasis on them than any other nation in the world.

our biggest competitor for education is probably japan or china. but in japan people WANT to go to school and the position of educator is a high class position.

why then is the answer to our problems tests that at worst blame the student for things like SES and at best blame the teachers for being inadequate -- on a test whos validity has NEVER been proven?
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:44 PM   #14
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if America'* education system is so bad, why is the answer standardized tests? we already place more emphasis on them than any other nation in the world.
The answer is not standardized tests, the answer is a better education. The standardized tests are only a representation of that education.

As for the proven validity, you will have to suggest a better alternative for providing a representation of America'* education in order to oust standardized tests.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:45 PM   #15
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instead i ask you to defend standardized tests, as those are the new kids on the block.

something else to consider, we are cutting art, music, and recess in favor of test prep. what is that teaching our students?

conformity versus self-expression. and then we dope them on ritalin to make up for them not having recess. blame it on a chemical imbalance.

i ask, who would want this in our kids? certainly, robots make better peons.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:48 PM   #16
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Do you want a test that works? It'* called a job that someone loves and wants to be the best at. To learn, perform, improve on, and succeed.

It reminds me of a story from a guy at work. He used to own a car dealership in the 50'*. Had a guy that worked for him. Couldn't read or write his own name. Probably considered dumb by many standards. He was one helluva mechanic though.

Most everyone is intelligent, but we are not all intelligent in the same ways. Some are mechanically inclined, others are word smiths. Some have a very broad spectrum of common information that is readily available to the public(something that people tend to view as intelligence and dismiss the rest). End story is, we are mostly all smart in our own ways.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:48 PM   #17
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instead i ask you to defend standardized tests, as those are the new kids on the block.
I reject your proposal of my defense. I instead propose that you introduce a new system as standardized tests are the status quo. The status quo needs no defense unless it has competition which is my point.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:48 PM   #18
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Whooo...glad I'm done with college or this would have gotten me all pissed off.

All I can say is that we need to think more on not why something is the way it is, but rather how it works. I believe thats the mentality of China or Japan. I'm no expert on this subject, but I am an expert on taking tests and yes school trained me well for that.

I wish school was more valuable for me, but sadly real world hands on experience in school wasn't there for me. What I did learn was how to suck it up and deal with some very strange people who, deep down inside, drove me insane.

I might not be a good test subject. I've hated school in any form my entire life and that feeling of dread never left me. But hey, if its something I self teach myself or benefits my work I'm all for it.

If I was good at football and had a free ride through college then became pro THEN college would have been a great experience.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:53 PM   #19
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okay.

dont misunderstand, im not saying standardized tests are invalid. just mostly invalid. they provide an easy way to classify people as "smart" and "not smart" in a very cost-effective manner. but there are better ways.

for instance, the way that is used in business and many universities around the united states. the utilization of portfolios and peer reviews.

if you want to test the teachers, test the teachers. dont tests the teachers through the students,
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:54 PM   #20
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I think the entire system is flawed, and obviously tests are flawed. The problem with the system is the fact that parents believe equality is key. That'* not necessarily the best answer. I'm not saying put black people in a school and put white people in a better school. We need advanced schools for higher testing students. Our schools should have different levels for different students. Someone that has trouble reading may need more attention, but the student who wants to read literature is sitting around wasting his time while the other student is slowing him down. A school that focuses on helping students learn can help under achieving students. I'm sure intelligent people can tell you that they remained largely unchallenged in public school, and were unprepared for the challenges of college.

It may offend a kid that he'* going to the lower level school and his friend is going to the "smart" school, but both kids are winning. They are both winning, and getting a better education. The schools don't necessarily have to be different even, just a larger selection of classes to help kids self-actualize.

As for tests, they're all inherently biased. I think "test preperation" is bullcrap, because you shouldn't PREPARE for just the test. The test is supposed to test your knowledge of the subjects, not your ability to study for the test. The reason minority races do poor on tests is because they aren't as educated as white people. This is why we have affirmative action. We have had the upper-hand in America for a long time, and equality for other races is fairly recent. It takes a while for people that were once slaves to acquire wealth and status equal to a white family.
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