The END of PONTIAC!! Say it isn't so . . . - Page 2 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 03-24-2005, 02:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonneVille
Agreed, Ponitac has got to up the ante, go back to it'* roots.
Phase out FWD as new models are introduced.
Bring the Bonneville back as a RWD with the 5.7(400hp) or the SCed N* from the STS-V(440hp).
Keep the GTO around but offer an auto-cross tuned version with around 450hp.
Keep the GP name around as a RWD with the L67, but with a massive retune for the GTP Comp G(300hp or better.
Keep the G6 around as a FWD, it'* the only thing GM has that can compete in the Sport Compact crowd, but offer a Comp G package.
The Solstice looks like a great little car, but make sure it gets the SCed Ecotec.
KILL THE PURSUIT AND THE VIBE! Ugly-a$$ little pieces of crap.

Buick on the other hand, is dying, I can see it. They haveall the same problems that Olds had before it died. Sales are down, development is being cut, and their image, even more than Olds, is that Buicks are for old people. They need to capture that same "youth market" that everybody else is going after. Go after Infinti.
Again, phase out FWD. Bring back the Regal name, it'* recognized by enthusiasts, and bring out a new GN and GNX. Offer the Series 3 SC for the GN, with a massive retune for the GNX, with the same suspension and brake package as the next gen Comp G.
Whatever replaces the LeSabre need to be a RWD V-8(Preferably the SC N*), big and luxurious, just like the PA, with that same poise, but more aggressive than that pansy Lucerne thing.

There'* no reason either division should be dropped, they just need freshening. GM is headed in the right direction with Caddy, put the people in charge of that in charge of overall product development. If they want to drop a division, kill GMC. I know they sell well, but producing the exact same truck, with two different trim styles, has got to be a profit killler. Or liquidate Daewoo. Consolidate Opel and Vauxhall, I never did see the point in having a seperate division for Britain and the rest of Europe. In fact, kill em both and fold em into ChevyEurope.
There is just too much GM could do to bring down overhead to justify cutting Pontiac, which still sells well.
someone forward this rant to GM
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Old 03-24-2005, 03:25 AM   #12
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he is talking about muscling up every car.... what about gas.... its getting more expensive, i think that there should be a sport trim (like the bonnie had the ssei) along with a base trim... i think that with expected gas prices that many people would buy a 2.2 liter ecotec over a supercharged 3.8.... and most people think that a supercharger will kill your gas milage, which is false, they usually increase gas milage, but u have to buy higher octane fuel, so it evens out in the end. gm should advertise the gas milage of there supercharged vehicles, this would attract older and younger crowds. gm also needs to revive some of there long lost classic car models, not like the did the gto, but with a new/old generation look, like the new mustangs, this would atract all sorts of people... gm should also make a car that serves absolutly no purpose whatsoever, that is a total piece of crap(like the ssr except crapped out) to compete with cars like the bettle and the pt cruiser, have u guys noticed how many of these 2 cars are out on the road... gm also needs to find somebody else to design the body of there cars, they should use there current guys on the sport compacts, so they get better gas milage, and get new guys that can make a really nice looking car, because gm just isnt competing with ford in the looks department. gm also needs to invest alot more money into racing, because i have found that some people believe that gm vehicles are all show no go because back in the day all the big names in racing (like carrol shelby) were with ford. gm should have certain high performance cars with a "racing" trim that has been redesigned/suped up by members of the racing comunity(such as mclaren). i also think that gm needs to give a perfomance part a cool meaningful name, and advertise the heck out of it... i think they should do this because i have seen many people gain intrest, and even invest in something just because it has a cool name (an example would be the dodge hemi). gm also needs to bring back some of its luxury car models and raise up the price some and make them more luxurious (an example of this would be rear power seats)... gm should also make a car or trim of a car that represents a mobile office.

if gm did all this stuff, i think they would have no problems selling cars to younger and older crowds. the only things i see people looking for in vehicles are sport, gas consumption, luxury/comfort, and function, if gm did all of what i just said they would fill the gap for all of the areas.....
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Old 03-24-2005, 12:00 PM   #13
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Get rid of the disasterous interiors, first and foremost.

Get rid of poor build quality.

Get rid of old engine technology.

Get rid of the nose-heavy front-drivers.

Get rid of questionable reliability.

Add some personality.

Price competitively.

Pontiac'* lost it in the last five or ten years, it'll sure as hell be a shame to see it go, but in no way will it be surprising.
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Old 03-24-2005, 12:49 PM   #14
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Lets look back in the day...89 SSE loaded... 22,000-23,000... Now go foward 11 years... 2000 SSEi new 34,000... Hmmmm Yeah... I understand infaltion, but um no.. Don't shoot me for saying that...

My 91 Bonnie was $17,000 brand new I think... And my 95 SE was 22,000 brand new... The 91 has to be the best built GM I have ever had the pleasure to drive... The interior is still tight... Replaced one window motor...

The 95 is quirky, rattles and squeeks, leeks water... Its a nice interior, but not as good as good in the quality department as the 91..

And somewhere I saw that in 95 GM sold 96,000 bonnevilles as compared to 30,000 for all of 2004..

My SE as most of you already know had the bucket seats, center console, roof console with sunglass storage/powerport, alloys and most power options right down to the illuminated entry... But no keyless... That was a $22,000 car...

My neighbor has a hundai(spelling ) Sonata with a 2.7 V6... Its a little better than 1.5 years old, he has 30,000 miles on it, and it still runs great... Doesn't quirk or rattle, and the interior quality seems decent... All power options there too.. He has had only one single problem with the car and that has been the stereo, which Hundai gladly replaced.. He has been very happy with the car on long trips, and he himself has been very shocked at how far Hundai has come... I think he paid 16,000-18,000 if memory serves..

I'm not a hundai fan, but with a car that has all of the power options, an DOHC 2.7 V6, why would you spend 27,000-28,000 on a bonneville SE... I'm looking at it this way, if you are going to have a family hauler and you have plenty of other bills to pay, then the Bonneville SE at $27,000 may be a bit too expensive... The Hundai is now starting to look good...

Thats just a thought... I feel that pontiac just got away from what was once good... I feel that GM should have both FWD and RWD... I don't feel that killing of another brand would be a big help to GM... If they ever did kill off pontiac I'd be done buying GM products... The next thing in my driveway would be a Honda Accord V6...

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Old 03-24-2005, 01:21 PM   #15
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I think UAW has a lot to do with it. They're union so firing them is hard, they don't need to work hard to get higher up on the ladder, and their benefits and pay are fought for, by the union. Not to mention the retirement benefits that GM is still paying them keeps GM in the red....

Personally The Bonne GXP should've topped out around 30k (where the GP GXP will start), and the SE start around 22. If they're going to use cheaper materials then everyone else, why can't they make the cars cheaper? Another thing is how they keep leaking/releasing "secret info" about future cars, killilng demand for the cars now.

My 93 has held up great. The only issues i've run into are general wear which is to be expected of any car over 100k, and the previous owner.


And yes respinS, the 00-05 bonne, and 04+ GP dashes are hideous..
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Old 03-24-2005, 01:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jr's3800
Lets look back in the day...89 SSE loaded... 22,000-23,000... Now go foward 11 years... 2000 SSEi new 34,000... Hmmmm Yeah... I understand infaltion, but um no.. Don't shoot me for saying that...

My 91 Bonnie was $17,000 brand new I think... And my 95 SE was 22,000 brand new... The 91 has to be the best built GM I have ever had the pleasure to drive... The interior is still tight... Replaced one window motor...

The 95 is quirky, rattles and squeeks, leeks water... Its a nice interior, but not as good as good in the quality department as the 91..

And somewhere I saw that in 95 GM sold 96,000 bonnevilles as compared to 30,000 for all of 2004..

My SE as most of you already know had the bucket seats, center console, roof console with sunglass storage/powerport, alloys and most power options right down to the illuminated entry... But no keyless... That was a $22,000 car...

My neighbor has a hundai(spelling ) Sonata with a 2.7 V6... Its a little better than 1.5 years old, he has 30,000 miles on it, and it still runs great... Doesn't quirk or rattle, and the interior quality seems decent... All power options there too.. He has had only one single problem with the car and that has been the stereo, which Hundai gladly replaced.. He has been very happy with the car on long trips, and he himself has been very shocked at how far Hundai has come... I think he paid 16,000-18,000 if memory serves..

I'm not a hundai fan, but with a car that has all of the power options, an DOHC 2.7 V6, why would you spend 27,000-28,000 on a bonneville SE... I'm looking at it this way, if you are going to have a family hauler and you have plenty of other bills to pay, then the Bonneville SE at $27,000 may be a bit too expensive... The Hundai is now starting to look good...

Thats just a thought... I feel that pontiac just got away from what was once good... I feel that GM should have both FWD and RWD... I don't feel that killing of another brand would be a big help to GM... If they ever did kill off pontiac I'd be done buying GM products... The next thing in my driveway would be a Honda Accord V6...
You hit it right on the head. My car was about $31,000 new. But the car was one that was desired by the public. It was something new.

GM still dosen't get it. They continue to re-badge the same old ho-hum cars and call them something different. Take the G6. It'* a malibu! Maybe with stiffer springs, but same engine, interior, etc. What is so special about it?!!!! You can't call Pontiac an "Excitment" devision of GM if you just give a ho-hum car a facial! I look back at when my parents were kids and see all the different cars that GM produced. There was variety and GM was doing very well. Look at Oldsmobile, the company had nothing Unique to it'* lineup of cars. Bravada, Alero, Sillouette (however you spelt it).... The only cars that were more unique were the Intrigue and the Aurora, and even those were knock-offs. GM needs to pull their head out of there A**!

Look at Hyundai, they are now producing a quality product at a desirable price. Looking into the future and seeing Hyundai and Kia being huge rivals, if not already, to Japan'* hot imports. You could get a Fulley loaded Hyundai Sonata for the base price of a Pontiac Grand Prix. Now, I'd personally still go for the pontiac, just my taste, but for the average american that is trying to get the most out of their money, the choice is clear.











ok john, breath.......







Ah that felt good!
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Old 03-24-2005, 01:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonneMeMN
I think UAW has a lot to do with it. They're union so firing them is hard, they don't need to work hard to get higher up on the ladder, and their benefits and pay are fought for, by the union. Not to mention the retirement benefits that GM is still paying them keeps GM in the red....

Personally The Bonne GXP should've topped out around 30k (where the GP GXP will start), and the SE start around 22. If they're going to use cheaper materials then everyone else, why can't they make the cars cheaper? Another thing is how they keep leaking/releasing "secret info" about future cars, killilng demand for the cars now.

My 93 has held up great. The only issues i've run into are general wear which is to be expected of any car over 100k, and the previous owner.


And yes respinS, the 00-05 bonne, and 04+ GP dashes are hideous..
Very good points...

I feel that GM was going in the right direction in the late 80'* with the bonneville and then again in the early to mid 90'*.... GM may need to go back and take a hard look around...

Yes my car too has its share of wear which I have expected... But I still swear up an down that mine is either a friday or monday car...LMAO

And I do agree I feel that the Bonneville SE should start out at 21-22,000... oh well

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Old 03-24-2005, 01:34 PM   #18
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i have been saying for years that GM needs to apeal to the younger crowd - especially the Fast and the Furious crowd! Dang it, i don't care too much for those towel racks and stuff, but honda/toyota/etc have that market cornered. What does GM have? the cavalier and maybe the sunfire . . . Come on GM if these are the two models you are going to use to compete against the evo'* and civic and focus'* do something with them. make a sport package that has UMMPFF! and i am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong but aren't the Cavalier and sunfire FWD where the lancer/evo 2 fast 2 furious cars are RWD? big difference there!

i was watching a show on the history channel yesterday about "muscle cars" and the worst part is that it is HISTORY, but in the 60'* the bonneville and GTO were the leaders not the followers on design and power - that'* where pontiac needs to go back to. You all did realize that Jack DeLorean wa responsible for the GTO and alot of the Pontiac line back then, didn't you? We need another out of bounds thinker back in Pontiac.

oh yeah, i say there are quite a few cars in the line pontiac could drop - Aztek comes immediately to mind. Does anyone really like those?
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Old 03-24-2005, 01:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driverjohn2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by jr's3800
Lets look back in the day...89 SSE loaded... 22,000-23,000... Now go foward 11 years... 2000 SSEi new 34,000... Hmmmm Yeah... I understand infaltion, but um no.. Don't shoot me for saying that...

My 91 Bonnie was $17,000 brand new I think... And my 95 SE was 22,000 brand new... The 91 has to be the best built GM I have ever had the pleasure to drive... The interior is still tight... Replaced one window motor...

The 95 is quirky, rattles and squeeks, leeks water... Its a nice interior, but not as good as good in the quality department as the 91..

And somewhere I saw that in 95 GM sold 96,000 bonnevilles as compared to 30,000 for all of 2004..

My SE as most of you already know had the bucket seats, center console, roof console with sunglass storage/powerport, alloys and most power options right down to the illuminated entry... But no keyless... That was a $22,000 car...

My neighbor has a hundai(spelling ) Sonata with a 2.7 V6... Its a little better than 1.5 years old, he has 30,000 miles on it, and it still runs great... Doesn't quirk or rattle, and the interior quality seems decent... All power options there too.. He has had only one single problem with the car and that has been the stereo, which Hundai gladly replaced.. He has been very happy with the car on long trips, and he himself has been very shocked at how far Hundai has come... I think he paid 16,000-18,000 if memory serves..

I'm not a hundai fan, but with a car that has all of the power options, an DOHC 2.7 V6, why would you spend 27,000-28,000 on a bonneville SE... I'm looking at it this way, if you are going to have a family hauler and you have plenty of other bills to pay, then the Bonneville SE at $27,000 may be a bit too expensive... The Hundai is now starting to look good...

Thats just a thought... I feel that pontiac just got away from what was once good... I feel that GM should have both FWD and RWD... I don't feel that killing of another brand would be a big help to GM... If they ever did kill off pontiac I'd be done buying GM products... The next thing in my driveway would be a Honda Accord V6...
You hit it right on the head. My car was about $31,000 new. But the car was one that was desired by the public. It was something new.

GM still dosen't get it. They continue to re-badge the same old ho-hum cars and call them something different. Take the G6. It'* a malibu! Maybe with stiffer springs, but same engine, interior, etc. What is so special about it?!!!! You can't call Pontiac an "Excitment" devision of GM if you just give a ho-hum car a facial! I look back at when my parents were kids and see all the different cars that GM produced. There was variety and GM was doing very well. Look at Oldsmobile, the company had nothing Unique to it'* lineup of cars. Bravada, Alero, Sillouette (however you spelt it).... The only cars that were more unique were the Intrigue and the Aurora, and even those were knock-offs. GM needs to pull their head out of there A**!

Look at Hyundai, they are now producing a quality product at a desirable price. Looking into the future and seeing Hyundai and Kia being huge rivals, if not already, to Japan'* hot imports. You could get a Fulley loaded Hyundai Sonata for the base price of a Pontiac Grand Prix. Now, I'd personally still go for the pontiac, just my taste, but for the average american that is trying to get the most out of their money, the choice is clear.











ok john, breath.......







Ah that felt good!
I couldn't agree more John... I saw one of those new buicks in black... Man that car was a looker... If buick can get their **** together then I think Pontiac needs to pull their heads out of their asses and get with it....

I for some reason feel that killing of the Bonneville name plate isn't a good idea... Having a G6 or G8 for nameplates.... Now we are just trying to coppy everyone else.... Its crap..

Lets see what was that saying that Chrysler used to use...

Lead follow or get out of the way... Looks like GM is trying to follow right now... Keep it up and they just might have to get out of the way...lol

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Old 03-24-2005, 02:06 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xac Xado
i have been saying for years that GM needs to apeal to the younger crowd - especially the Fast and the Furious crowd! Dang it, i don't care too much for those towel racks and stuff, but honda/toyota/etc have that market cornered. What does GM have? the cavalier and maybe the sunfire . . . Come on GM if these are the two models you are going to use to compete against the evo'* and civic and focus'* do something with them. make a sport package that has UMMPFF! and i am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong but aren't the Cavalier and sunfire FWD where the lancer/evo 2 fast 2 furious cars are RWD? big difference there!

worst part is that it is HISTORY, but in the 60'* the bonneville and GTO were the leaders not the followers on design and power - that'* where pontiac needs to go back to. You all did realize that Jack DeLorean wa responsible for the GTO and alot of the Pontiac line back then, didn't you? We need another out of bounds thinker back in Pontiac.

oh yeah, i say there are quite a few cars in the line pontiac could drop - Aztek comes immediately to mind. Does anyone really like those?
Few things with this... The F&F crowd is more flash then anything, especially concerned in the car business. The civic and focus are the same class as the Cobalt (replaced the cavi), which now has a supercharged Ecotec coming to market in the next month or two. Plain Mitsu Lancers are FWD, while the Evolution is AWD, and about $30k.

The GTO nowadays is the powerleader, atleast until the GT500 comes out...
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