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Old 05-24-2003, 10:20 PM   #1
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Default 10 minute relay???

I have a very good question about a stalling problem, i've come across on a bonne. Its a 96SSE.

I'll explaain what the problem is. I've had the car looked at by myself & 3 other GM dealerships & we CANNOT!!! figure out what the problem is. OBDII shows nothing. All sensors check good. We have gone over the car with a fine tooth comb. Still to no avail to fix the problem. Its not mechanical problem, it is electrical this we know for certain.

Now for the problem:::::

Upon first start up, be it sitting in the driveway or driving down the street, doesnt matter it happens in ANY weather condition, ANY time of day. BUT!!!!!!!! It happens at EXACTLY 10 minutes AFTER the car has been started, & then again about 3 seconds after you restart it. BUT inorder for you to restart it you have to stop the car put it in park & take out the key & reinsert it. It starts rght up every time then you put it in drive & 3 seconds later it will die again.Then you have repeat the process. BUT after the second time it stalls it WILLL NOT do it again. You can drive it around for hours & it will not stall.
NOW, this just dawned on my like 10 minutes ago( I was still in the car driving to the house). I know these cars have a 10 minute relay that shuts off the battery power when the car isnt running( key in the ignition listening to the radio, it kills power so the battery doesnt go dead). IS it possible for this relay to go bad & cause the car to cut off after 10 minutes? Considering it controls the electrical system, I assume it would. These people have spent over $700 in diagnosis work & replacing parts( gotta love GM dealerships).
I dont know what the relay looks like or where its at. I dont have the wiring schemactics either. I cant compare it with my bonneville because I dont have the original harness & most of the car is fiber optics now anyway.
I still have my old harness so I'm thinking of swapping out the realy.
Does anyone have any input on this & also does anyone know where that damn relay is ??
Sorry for the long post. I couldnt have explained it in any shorter terms. Thanks for the space.
I would like a reply even if you have no clue where this thing is. I just want to know if I'm on the right track.
Thanks again!!!!!!
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Old 05-24-2003, 11:55 PM   #2
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LS1,
The ten minute time delay is for a few selected accessories like the radio, and power windows, sunroof etc. I believe it was termed "Battery Run Down Protection" (but not sure) on the 96-99 Bonnevilles. The time delay starts when ignition is positioned from "on" to "off", or when remove key from ignition. But when you open a door (before ten min. time delay is up), the accessories turn off. The +12v ignition rail should not be on any time delay and should be powered up all the time the ignition is placed in "on". You really need some good schematics to study on this one. Something may be grounded up in one of the fuse compartments, a failed processor/controller chip or of that nature. Something is biasing your ignition to shut down, and how it'* related to a ten minute time delay is anyone'* guess.
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Old 05-25-2003, 03:21 AM   #3
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What happens if you don't take out the key before restarting it? Does the starter still engage?

Does the oil pressure gauge give the correct values?

Has the dealer replaced the fuel pump relay?
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Old 05-25-2003, 08:14 AM   #4
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If I dont take the key out it will crank over but not start.

All the gauges, when the car is running read correctly.

No they havent repaced the relay.



So there is noway that if the relay goes bad( shorts out, stays open but the timer still works), that it can possibly backfeed to the ignition switch? Because something has to tell that relay that the ignition switch has been turned off, right?

Maybe a bad ignition switch?


Thank you for the reply'*.
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Old 05-25-2003, 10:04 AM   #5
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LS1,
I have a set of factory manuals for the 96 Bonne--what exact systems do you need? I can scan the sections of the wiring diagrams and post em for ya

Jim
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Old 05-25-2003, 10:16 AM   #6
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Awesome, thank you.
I guess the starting system for now. As long as it has the ignition switch & what it runs to. Anything you can post would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.
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Old 05-25-2003, 12:45 PM   #7
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OK, I scanned the starter circuit, fairly high-res--so they are kinda large files. I put em on my website, here'* links for ya:

www.jimzdat.com/images/start1.jpg

www.jimzdat.com/images/start2.jpg

Lemme know if you need anything else
Jim
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Old 05-25-2003, 03:14 PM   #8
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Sounds like the starter is fine... Your problem seems to be in the fuel system or the Pass-key II system.

If you're thinking its the Retained Accessory Power, there is a module that controls that. In the 93 it is called the Remote Accessory Control Module. It senses when the ignition is turned off, then it runs a timer to control two relays, but only for the radio, sunroof, power windows, etc. The relays shift from a "hot in run" feed to a "hot at all times" feed that bypasses the ignition switch. In 10 minutes they switch back to "hot in run" and it turns off the accessories if the car is off. I don't see how this could affect the rest of the functions like the PCM and fuel system...

If you have to take the key out and put it back in, it sure sounds like the Pass-key II system. I suppose the PCM could be at fault. So you're not getting a "security" light at any time? Have you tried using a different ignition key?

Has anyone modified the wiring for a remote starter, aftermarket radio, etc.?
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Old 05-25-2003, 03:48 PM   #9
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Thanks for the diagrams.

The car is completely stock. Its owned by an elderly couple. Its their only means of transportation.


fuddyduddy121. Thats what I was figuring. But my questioning behind that relay is. If its controlled by the igniton switch(it obviously has to be somehow) unless its run from a accessory like the radio. Because you say it "senses" when the ignition is turned off. Where would it get this "information" from? Maybe whatever it is, its shorted or stuck in the open position & as soon as I turn on the key the to the on position it starts the timer....maybe????

So I guess my question NOW is what is inline between the ignition switch & the Remote Accessory Control Module???

Thanks for all the paticence.
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Old 05-25-2003, 04:18 PM   #10
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In the 93 there is a fuse that is hot in "run," "bulb test," or "start." This comes from the ignition. The RAC module is connected to this fuse. When the power goes dead, it starts the 10-minute timer.

Here'* something: The RAC de-energizes the relays also when you open a door. So I would think that opening a door before the 10-minutes should also cause the car to stall out.

I'm beginning to think that this could be the ignition switch. Try the open-the-door experiment. Could the power be coming backwards through the Retained Power relays, to the rest of the engine, while the power from the run setting on the ignition switch does not exist? That doesn't seem right, because that means the relays would have to be in the run position when the engine is started, not the retained power position.
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