Red vs Yellow (optima) - Page 2 - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


Audio (and aftermarket electronics) This is your place for alarms, remote starters, to brag about your system, exaggerate your db levels, or simply ask questions for stock or aftermarket audio. No Flames! (except from roasted amps)

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Old 09-10-2004, 08:34 PM   #11
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The reason Im looking at optimas is bexcause I need a new battery anyway. But I dont want to get some other battery then WISH that I bought an optima. On the website it doesnt give you any info on what the difference between the two is. (maybe I didnt look hard enough) I know that the alternator is more important, I have another thread about that. So a Red Top would probably be best for my application right? I want the extra reserve capacity because it never hurts to have IMO. I dont want to go out and buy batterys annually.
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Old 09-10-2004, 10:27 PM   #12
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yea for what your doing red top is your ticket.
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Old 09-10-2004, 11:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S1ofDSS
I've installed yellow tops in too many cars to remember, some with stock alts and some without. Most with caps and some without. The only cars with alt failure after the battery change were bangers who against my advice decided to skip the high output alt for the battery upgrade. I 100% agree with the fact that an alternator is the #1 upgrade you can and should to to you electrical system. It is also the first upgrade you should do to your electrical system (yes way before a battery for reasons that have been previously stated). As far as deep cycle hurting alternators, I've never seen any proof of that. It has been a discussion just like are drilled /slotted rotors worth it. Two sides and two stories that both make perfect sense. MECP is still putting deep cycle batterys as the only battery and stating that it is ok on there tech notes. along with optima and SVR and stinger. The cap can absorb some of the ac ripple in the electrical system that deep cycle batteries are not used to.
In the spirit of friendly debate, tell me why you think a deep cycle battery is an advantage in a car. And what possible effect can it have on your sound system.
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Old 09-11-2004, 12:07 AM   #14
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Ok, let'* look at this logically. RV batteries are deep cycle for a reason. Long periods of discharge at a steady fairly low rate. Are they charged by an automotive type alternator? Yes. But through an isolator that allows them to charge at a controlled rate in order to protect the alternator.

Boats also use them. Usually for trolling motors. Sometimes charged through an isolator, but Marine Alternators are built to be able to handle it.

Bottom line.....our alternators are KNOWN to have problems. The heat is one of the things that kills them, and the rear bearing is usually the victim. Having to recharge a deep cycle battery without an isolator is one of the things that can stress them to this point.

Now you mention 'AC ripple'. AC ripple won't kill a deep cycle battery. The batteries in your RV are charged by typical alternators (through isolators that don't filter out 'ac ripple'. The manufacturing techniques and technology in deep cycle batteries aren't much different than in typical automotive batteries.

But this is all moot.

Again I pose the challenge. Start your car. Kick on the amps and subs. Leave the car running and disconnect the battery? Does the music sound any different? Does it kill the car or amp? No, and no. If you need more battery to support your system, your alternator is the culprit. The battery is only the VICTIM of the situation, and yellow tops are simple status symbols for guys with kickin sound systems. Don't fall for it.

The battery has NO EFFECT on your sound system unless you run it for 12 hours without the car running. No output wattage change, no sound quality change, etc. If you want to waste the money to look cool, by all means, go ahead. You won't gain a thing except a hole in your wallet.

I'm fully aware of the fact that this may go against everything you know or everything you've heard/been told, but the facts are facts. It'* really this simple. Don't fall victim to the belief that a deep cycle battery is any benefit for an audio system. It'* only a benefit to the guy you buy the battery from.

Want a good setup? Go with the Optima, but go Red Top. Or go Red Top, and put a Yellow Top in the trunk behind an isolator. I like the Optima'*, and have alot of respect for the engineering and good common sense in their design. That'* why I run a Red Top.
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Old 09-11-2004, 01:24 AM   #15
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Alrighty Red Top it is. Alls I'm looking for is somethign to start my car. I am not really a fan of running electronics directly off the battery without the car on. Thanks guys that pretty much answers my question
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Old 09-11-2004, 01:37 AM   #16
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The only benefit of having a yellow in a car is for when it is not running. I never disagreed with that. And if you are serious enough to use a yellow top for your sound system (once again only benefit is for shows, because you can't have your car running in the judging lanes)you are serious enough to already have an upgraded alt. The hype on the deep cycle in the car audio biz (I currently run a 1.5M a year mobile entertainment department and am MECP first class certified with 7 years professional install experience) is that it has ,borderline, no memery and can support long drains at high current without a charge. and to hit on the ac ripple issue. Do you know what is in those isolators? Big diodes. One for positive and one for negative (in the good ones, cheap only has one for the positive). With diodes ac ripple is suppressed also. (not as good as a cap). Friendly debate is what these board are all about. We are both trying o help the decision. We both agree that the red top is the way to go in this situation. And No, there is no difference between the battries when the car is running. Wll how come you and I always end up going at it? Did I do something to you?
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Old 09-11-2004, 01:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
The battery has NO EFFECT on your sound system unless you run it for 12 hours without the car running. No output wattage change, no sound quality change, etc. If you want to waste the money to look cool, by all means, go ahead. You won't gain a thing except a hole in your wallet.

I'm fully aware of the fact that this may go against everything you know or everything you've heard/been told, but the facts are facts. It'* really this simple. Don't fall victim to the belief that a deep cycle battery is any benefit for an audio system. It'* only a benefit to the guy you buy the battery from.
This may apply for the majority of people but for the few who .....have to wait for hours in ferry line-ups with the engine off and the stereo pumping......like to party with the trunk open to expose the cooler of brown ones.....like to park with a sweetie and listen to tunes, for hours.

Hey, I'm not that old that I don't remember what it'* like to be 18.......hell I'm still 18 but with 32 years of experience.
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Old 09-11-2004, 12:27 PM   #18
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Ok....we're narrowing it down. We're agreeing that:

1. The author of this topic needs a Red Top (and a damn good battery, too).
2. Unless you spend hours pumping tunes without the engine running, you don't need a deep cycle.
Quote:
This may apply for the majority of people but for the few who .....have to wait for hours in ferry line-ups with the engine off and the stereo pumping......like to party with the trunk open to expose the cooler of brown ones.....like to park with a sweetie and listen to tunes, for hours.
Well said, Paul.

The Majority of poeple DON'T need it. Yellow Tops have become bragging rights for people with high performance audio, for little or no benefit.

Now the Alternator issue:
1. Upgrade it first. Everyone here is aware of the alternator problems we have. Rather unique problems. Add load, beef up the alternator. First and foremost.
2. That yellow top, when you add it, better be behind an isolator in the trunk, and not a primary starting battery, or you'll have trouble.
3. Any time you see a person with a Yellow Top in place of their primary starting battery, they should be encouraged to get it out of there, or move it, and install it correctly.

In addition, in order to properly remove AC ripple, you need a full rectifier. This would include a diode bridge, inductor, and cap. I have a very good friend who is a mechanical engineer for a battery seperator company (Develops new lead/acid battery technology, and their work ends up in virtually 95% of batteries sold in the US......there aren't actually that many battery manufacturers around, maybe only 2 or 3 that make all brands), and his suggestion is that AC ripple would have no more effect on a deep cycle battery than a primary battery. However, that AC ripple could have an effect on your amp and sound quality.
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Old 09-11-2004, 06:48 PM   #19
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I suppose I can contribute just a bit.

I don't know who is right in this debate, but I think I can make a couple points.

My boat has two batteries. One for a minn kota trolling motor, and the other is for everything else. Both batteries are stand-alone, in the sense that they are not connected to each other in any way. The primary battery is hooked up to the motor (alternator), all the lights, pumps, etc. We have always had a deep cycle for the minn kota, and an automotive battery for the primary battery. Last time though, we made the decision to go with a deep cycle battery for the primary without doing any research.

The battery has gone strong for 3 years with the normal amount of usage. But there are a couple thing you need to remember.

1. The quick release of energy that is used to start the engine is not as great. The amount of draw doesn't even compare to what you would need for a car. The engine is a lot smaller, and the engine starts a lot faster. I think this is CCA (cold cranking amps), right? Not as much CCA is necessary for the starting of my 40 HP boat motor.

2. The alternator in the boat motor is MADE for marine usage. So logically, it should be made to charge marine batteries.
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Old 09-11-2004, 09:51 PM   #20
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On a semi-related note, if you still have problems with your headlights dimming and such after you get the Optima, try replacing the big 3:

http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/u...c;f=5;t=007801

If you take a look under your hood, and you have any sort of high-miles on your car, it'* a good possibility that these wires are still OEM, and that the connections have corrosion, rust, or other assorted nastiness all over them.

And if you do buy a Cap (capacitor for those who might not be familiar with them), attempt to find one with low ESR (electro-static resistance). For the most part, the name-brand ones like RF/Audiobahn/etc... aren't really all that useful.

I haven't kept up to date on the newest equipment, but IIRC, Streetwires always made good Caps, and if you have the money, buy one of those really cool 5, 15, or 50 ( ) farad C.A.P'*. Can't remember the name offhand, but they're the kind that aren't round like the others; They almost look like a small amp or signal processor.
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