No Start - Have spark, no fuel. Ether will turn it over - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 07-07-2007, 01:38 AM   #1
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Default No Start - Have spark, no fuel. Ether will turn it over

Gentlemen,

Tried to find a thread with my particular problem. Yeh, like that'* possible.

A brief history...this is my Mothers car which is now mine since it won't fit in their new garage. My good fortune! It has 105K on her now and was so gently driven and cared for that it is almost like new. There isn't a hint of rust or corrosioin anywhere. I have driven it for the last two years and have continued the care.

Anyhow, like many of you other Bonneville drivers out there, my problem began with increasingly hard starting with what appeared like a low fuel pressure condition. Once I did get her started, at first during regular driving the car would lose power, the SES light would come on, then the power would return but the car ran extremely rough and the SES light would not clear. A quick shift into neutral and a restart would bring everything back to life and the SES would clear. I hardly lost any speed and got rather good ath the process. I drive 15 miles to work @ 55mph and would have to do this many times. Sometimes the stumble was quick enough that the SES light did not come on and everything ran as it should.

If the car was turned off, but restarted within 10 minutes or so, everything was fine. Let it sit for longer and it'* hard to start again. It seemed at first that turning on the ignition and letting it sit for 5 minutes would guarentee a start, but it doesn't anymore.

Again, at the moment it will not start at all.

I found a scanner today from the local tool rental so thought I'd post.

The following is what I know:

- A single code P0361 from an Actron CP9345.
- It will immediately fire and run smoothly for a second or two if I give it a shot of ether from a cold start. It still does this.
- Fuel pressure is 50 psig - new filter, no difference.
- New camshaft sensor - no difference.
- Coil packs tested OK for resistance on both primary & secondaries.
- Battery connections & grounds cleaned - no difference.
- Removed and cleaned contacts & surfaces on coil packs and ignition module.
- Replaced OEM gas cap with new.
- Pulled O2 sensor - clean.
- Fuses are good but I haven't checked relays.

I have a new crankshaft sensor in hand, but I hesitate to throw more into her after retrieving the code. I thought for sure it was the camshaft sensor when I sprayed the ether and it fired up. I had always thought the camshaft sensor triggered the fuel injectors which is what I'm seeing not happening.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!
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Old 07-07-2007, 02:09 AM   #2
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Oh, and I replaced all 6 of the worn AC spark plugs out with Champion Platinums.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:24 AM   #3
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P0361- Ignition coil/Secondary Circuit Malfunction

Hope that helps. Seems like you have tried a lot. How about the grounds?
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:40 AM   #4
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also replace the plugs with non-platinums
our cars don't fair well with them
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:53 AM   #5
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If I recall correctly, that code is thrown when the computer does not take over the ignition timing from the ignition module. The '94s and '95s have had some computer issues, and that is a possibility in this case.
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Old 07-07-2007, 12:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqela
also replace the plugs with non-platinums
our cars don't fair well with them
platinums are fine on non-boosted engines
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:22 PM   #7
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Thanks guys.

Yeh, I knew the code P0361 was for the EST not toggling. I'm wondering what the "K" means in the code description "Ignition Coil K Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction". Not very descriptive as there are three of them. I understand that you can swap them to see which one moves around, so I'll plan on doing that after I pick up a new battery today.

What'* up with certain scanners misinterpreting a P1361 for a P0361? Is that a problem with the Actron CP9345?

The scanner also reported a low voltage so I thought I'd put the charger on it overnight. This morning I went to start her up and nothing. The car was silent. Well, a few choice words went through my mind, so I walked silently inside the house and placed a mouthful of Highland Single Malt Scotch down my throat, Then I spouted something in Scottish I couldn't even understand, but I felt better.

I popped the hood and started to look around and wa-la, there was the positive cable laying against the air conditioning piping. The whole lead core had wrotted out from inside the battery! Upon closer inspection I could see that it must have been over-tightened at the dealership when it was first installed (this is the second battery ever placed in this car, so not a total loss as it is its time, but a major inconvinience for me). This car has always been serviced at the Pontiac dealership until I received it. I don't have the money yet that my parents have...lol.

So a low voltage and lowered amp draw upon start due to the greatly reduced contact surface of the battery -could- be causing the issue, but I doubt it. I fear I will be back where I started, but with another variable eliminated.

My bet is on the ICM or the PCM, but I'm leaning towards the ICM, yet I have spark. I will be checking wiring to those tomorrow to eliminate that.

If the ICM or PCM is bad is it possible for the PCM to still report that a crank or cam sensor is bad? I see mixed reviews on having the ICM & PCM tested. What do you folks have to say?

The biggest part of the puzzle is the fuel injectors not firing.

Later...
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:30 PM   #8
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Fuel injectors and spark timing both go through the ICM to the PCM.

The ICM controls the start/run up to 400 rpm'* when the PCM takes over, but the signals still go through the ICM.

You have spark? When trying to crank? FULL spark? Is it handing off to the PCM? That'* the question.

Check the coils per the instructions in Techinfo. The PCM and ICM cannot see them, nor report them as bad or good.
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Old 07-08-2007, 01:28 AM   #9
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I did measure the coils. The results were:

Primary Secondary
.7 5.8 bottom coil
.7 6.0 middle coil
.6 6.0 top coil

I don't think that it is handing off to the PCM because the engine speed is only as fast as the starter will turn it over. So that would mean the ICM is doing all of the work. I will test the spark again since I changed out the plugs, but it was a bright blue spark on my test plug. I only checked the front 3 as that shows the coils are working. I suppose a rear spark plug wire could be bad, but that wouldn't result in a no start condition, usually just a rough idle.

I actually found this site through a Google search and ended up in the Tech Info on how to test the coils. That is when I decided to join the group.

Thanks again!
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Old 07-08-2007, 09:58 AM   #10
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Fuel injectors get 12 volts to the pink wires while the key is in the run or start position. Check fuse #7 under the dash on the passenger side.
Then check for 12 volts at the pink wire on one of the injectors.
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