95 Bonne starting/surge problem - GM Forum - Buick, Cadillac, Chev, Olds, GMC & Pontiac chat


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Old 08-13-2004, 12:04 PM   #1
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Default 95 Bonne starting/surge problem

First off, Great Site! Great information! I have been using for the last 3 weeks. It has been very helpful.

When reading my info, please be patient. As we used to say at the Auto Store I used to work at, “We can't fix a car over the phone”. So, I am trying to provide as much detail as possible

For the last 3 weeks I have been working on a 95 Bonne SE, K motor, with 157K miles on it. The car has 2 issues. 1) It takes a while for it to start the majority of the time, and 2) occasionally when running it will surge and sometimes stall.

Some brief history - About 6 weeks ago it was at the dealer for the occasional surging problem. The dealer pulled a P0341 and P1361 code. They replaced the Crank Sensor, Cam Sensor, and ICM. It ran great for 2 weeks and then the starting problem came up and the surging started again. About 2 months before that the dealer replaced the starter (it went bad). Otherwise the car runs great, there is no loss of power and everything works on the car. When the car has had a problem, it has been always serviced at the dealer. How I got the car, is from a person I work with. They just bought a new car after the last visit to the dealer and then this started. They did not want to put anymore money into it, so they are letting me work on it. If I get this fixed, I can get the car to $600.

Regarding the starting issue, it takes about 5 minutes to get this to fire and run. The start spins over great, but it does not fire. It is like it is missing spark or fuel. The fuel pump does cycle when the key is turned on and it does build ~51 psi. When the pump turns off, the pressure will drop to ~48 psi. (when it is running ~45 psi) If the car does not fire within a 10 to 15 second crank, I will shut the key off and try it again. This has been keeping the battery fresh, not burning up the starter, and keeping the fuel pressure up. When the car does finally fire, it fires like it normally should, within a couple of cranks of the motor, AND it runs just fine. No spit, no sputter, just a smooth consistent idle. I suspect it is missing fuel. The plugs are dry, there is no flooding and I do not smell gas.

For the record, yes there are times the car will fire just fine on a cold start. The car will fire just fine after it has been ran. But if the car sits for more than 20 minutes, it will be difficult to start, but not to the duration of a cold start.

Occasionally, after it is running, the engine will start to throttle. This can happen right after starting up, or when cruising down the road. What will happen is the Check Gauge light and chime will come on, the voltage will drop to just above the red zone on the voltage gauge and the RPM will start to fluctuate up and down by a 1000 RPM. This throttling has lasted anywhere from a second or two to 15 to 20 seconds (more of the second or two). If it happens when driving, the car has stalled at times. When it has happened after start up, I have given the car some gas. The base RPM will increase, but it will still throttle. At higher RPM I will hear minor backfiring. When the throttling has been for the long duration, the SES light has come on and provided the following codes P0341 and P1361.

Below is a list of items that I have done with the car. What else should I try/check?


Replaced fuel filter
Replaced any bad or questionable vacuum hose/connections
Disconnected, inspected and at times cleaned any electrical connection under the hood, whether it be to wires, sensors, or fuse block/firewall
Disconnected, inspected and at time cleaned every relay in the Maxifuse center on the fire wall.
Disconnected and cleaned (lightly sanded) any ground wire found.
Disconnected and cleaned (lightly sanded) the lug on the power cable to the Maxifuse block
Changed the plugs
Replaced the alternator. Also lightly sanded the lug on the cable feeding the battery.
Ran an injector cleaner through the system.
Check fuel pressure during running, after shut down and sitting for a while.
Let the car sit over night with the battery out.
Have charged the battery (not replaced it. It was replaced about a year ago)
Cleaned the MAF
Cleaned the IAC and the housing it sits in, in the TB
Ohmed out the IAC
Cleaned the TPS
Ohmed the TPS
Cleaned the EGR
Had the car on a scanner
Tested the injectors with the scanner
Tested the TPS with the scanner
Ran additional ground wires from the block to the battery and block to the chassis (just in case)
Checked the Temp sensor in the air intake.
Checked the TB screen
Ohmed the coil packs
Removed and inspected the ICM
While the engine was running, moved various wires to see if there is a change in RPM, or short
Tried a different gas cap
While the engine was running, tapped on various sensors and relays (including TPS, IAC, MAF, and Crank) to see if there is a change in RPM
Wiggled the key and tumbler when driving down the road
Tilted the wheel when driving down the road
Cleaned the key tumbler and starting using the spare VATS key
Ohmed the VATS keys
Cleaned connectors on the PCM
Looked for corrosion inside and out on the PCM
Check the position and wires to the ignition switch on the column
Took a spray bottle with water and sprayed the engine at night to look for shorts (found the plug wires leak, but very little) or change in RPM

NOTE: During my work on the car, I have always disconnected both leads on the battery
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Old 08-13-2004, 12:25 PM   #2
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Wow! Good write-up!

How soon after you turn off the car does the fuel pressure drop to 48 PSI?

I'm thinking you might have a bad fuel pressure regulator.
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Old 08-13-2004, 12:47 PM   #3
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When first trying to start the car, the pressure will drop immediately after the relay shuts off when the key is turned on, but I do not try to start the car.

I then have been turning the key off and on again to build the pressure to 50 psi and attempt to start the car then. I feel I have been having better luck starting the car if the pressure is higher.

As for the pressure drop after the car has shut off, it stays were it was at when it was running. During the running of the car, the pressure will increase when you give it some gas.

I forogt to mention that I have pulled the regulator. It does not leak gas out of the vacuum hose. I did suck on the vaccum diaphragm, but I did not feel or hear anything move in it like the old choke pull offs. When I stopped by the dealer and looked at a new one and sucked on that, it acted the same way.
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Old 08-13-2004, 01:00 PM   #4
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Hey, where in MN are you at???

We have a meet tomorrow in Lakeville, MN. I also have the factory service manual for the 1995 Bonneville and an ODB1 scan tool we can use with my laptop to scan the car for codes, voltages, etc... Would it be possible for you to make it down there?
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Old 08-13-2004, 01:08 PM   #5
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MAN!! thanks for the offer.

Unfortunately I live in Brainerd (MN'* God country). If you wanted to work something out for here, that would be great.

PS. The big boys are dragging this weekend at BIR.
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Old 08-13-2004, 01:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankster
MAN!! thanks for the offer.

Unfortunately I live in Brainerd (MN'* God country). If you wanted to work something out for here, that would be great.

PS. The big boys are dragging this weekend at BIR.
I live in Crystal. Maybe we can get together sometime soon after the meet if you still need the help. Crystal is ALOT closer than Lakeville...lol.


In the mean time if you need any trouble shooting procedures for your car just let me know and I can get copies of the pages from my Factory Service Manual sent to you.
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Old 08-13-2004, 06:07 PM   #7
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Nope, No spare parts. But thought aout getting a parts car!
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Old 08-15-2004, 08:57 PM   #8
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Well, Hankster came over this afternoon and we spent about 3 hours going over stuff. I scanned it and got the following DTC codes:

341 Cam sensor
361 EST line toggle (this code is NOT in my FSM )

We followed a buch of wires around and eventually ended up cleaning the ground behind the oil sending unit. This ground is used for a few systems that could initiate the problems he was having.

Hank, you get home alright today? I know you said you have a few issues on the way down, Hope you had better luck onthe way back up!
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Old 08-16-2004, 12:41 AM   #9
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First off, Gordy thanks again for all your time this afternoon with the car. I just wish that it would have acted up when we had you system hooked to it.

So far the car has started like it should for me and has not throttled.

I am keeping my fingers cross that just providing some TLC to the ground for the PCM will take care of the problem. I will keep you posted.

Thanks again.
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Old 08-16-2004, 12:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankster
First off, Gordy thanks again for all your time this afternoon with the car. I just wish that it would have acted up when we had you system hooked to it.

So far the car has started like it should for me and has not throttled.

I am keeping my fingers cross that just providing some TLC to the ground for the PCM will take care of the problem. I will keep you posted.

Thanks again.
Hope it all works out for you. Your a brave man to dirve a "troubled car" for over 2 hours to get it scanned. If you ever want it scanned again, or need anything from my "magic books", just let me know.
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