Loud Lifter Tick on cold startups
 

Now a LONG time ago I said that I had a tick. And it went away. And well. Now its back. It does go away after running the car for about 10+ minutes...is this a normal amount of time or do I have some oil circulation problems?

I will get a vid of this soon. It is LOUD. I mean L O U D.

That's the time it takes to pump back up with oil. It's not a good sign that it's leaking down to begin with.

Depending on how long you plan on keeping the car, will dictate if you fix it or not.

I should have specified. It only happens if the car has been sitting for 8-10+ hours... So its taking a bit of time to leak back down.

But I remember someone dropping their oil pan on an LN3 and finding that the oil pickup was mostly clogged? Could that be a possible issue here?

That could be if you are having an oil pressure issue. However the way you describe it.. that would point to a bad lifter.

Well since my oil gauge is all funky, I couldn't tell you with any degree of accuracy.

A bad lifter...so that would basically require a top end overhaul...hmm. nice.

Ok, so say it is a bad lifter. Then why would the ticking go away as soon as the oil warms up.

Because this only seems to happen in cold temperatures. It did it last winter now that I think of it and went away in the summer. And I thought it just went away. So because this tempurature change seems to be the enabler of this noise..then would it lean more towards an oil circulation issue?

I will be replacing my oil pressure sender as soon as my wallet is refilled and then we can really get a good idea of what this might be.

The oil doesn't only warm up.

After start up..oil pumps throughout the motor. Including into the lifter that has somehow lost the oil usually stored in it. As the oil fills the lifter back up.. the noise goes away.

Is this a single lifter making the noise or all 12 lifters?

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Ok, I understand now. So you're saying this bad/faulty lifter is deemed bad because its not holding the oil it should?

I don't understand why it is not ticking in the summer though.

Less space... cold weather makes parts contract a little more. That small amount of clearance could be doing it. Or it could be getting worse.

Well I do know that it didn't do this when I bought the car.

It started doing this in Winter 05/06 just after I overheated it to the point where it was preigniting and killed my MAF sensor.

It does not seem to be getting much worse than it was last year but if the lifter completely failed is there any possibility for valve damage to occur?

I don't yet know EVERYTHING about engines, but then again, thats why I'm not a gearhead. Sorry if I sound a bit stupid asking numerous questions about this.

All I can tell you is that you would have to have heard a few bad lifters in diffrent applications to be able to pick the sound out... It can be a light tick, it can be a thud of sorts.. Its hard to explain on the forum... and describing the sound is another story...

When you manage to get Video, post it and we'll see what we can hear...

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I can post a video my tick later, and he can tell us if its the same sound

You have a tick too? Hmmm

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Its a sharp tick, not a thud. Kinda like tapping....and somehow...the name roller TAPpets comes to mind. :roll: Thats why I thought it is a lifter. AS FAR AS how many are acting up...it sounds like one...POSSIBLY two...but no where near positive. I will take a good video if I can.

This morning was opportune because it was about 5 degrees when i started the engine after not running it for 13 hours. It barely started and was running so rough the whole car was vibrating/shaking. It seemed like I had never heard the tick that loud. But that was probably just the sound resonating off of the cement/walls.

yup :roll:
Like johns, mine also goes away once its worm. I can still here it just a very little when worm though, very hard to here it.

But like today, Stone cold, 25*F you can here it when i start it up.
You cant here it right away but like 10-20seconds after you start you start to here it.

Rockers are loose. Mine were loose as crap, if the cam was in just the right position, i could rotate the rocker, and there was literally no valvetrain noise, upon startup or any other time. Easiest thing is pull oil cap and try wiggling the two nearest rockers from there. Or pull the front valve cover. It could be as easy as pulling some valve covers and hitting them with some blue loctite and a torque wrench. I wouldn't be surprised if that took care of the problem. Because for a lifter to bleed down that much, and take that long to pump up... is a rare occasion, but for enough of them to do that, that it causes hard starting, that's about impossible.

haha, i never said thats what caused the hard starting or vibrations.

it was 5 degrees! engines dont run that well when its that cold out...especially ones with a bunch of miles on them and it started slow because my battery needs a warmer on it. but once it was started it was all good, it just shook for about 30 seconds and then it was all good.

i thinki may also be expiriencing these lifter tick, or something related to it. mine also goes away after the car warms up

Don do you have a tick? I mean this only seems to happen when it gets really cold, and you're in florida so maybe you do and don't know.

Maybe this is just a normal common wear characteristic of the LN3 and SOME L27s?

Ok, since the tapping noise goes away after a few minutes of run time, I would cross bad lifters off the list. If a lifter was really done, it would tap most to all of the time.

Heres the short list of things that go wrong on a lifter: 1.) Sludge buildup inside the lifter body/plugged orifice keeping oil from filling up the lifter. 2.) Busted spring inside lifter body. 3.) Lifter bore oversize/worn. 4.) contact surface with cam damaged/wrong cam and lifter types.

1 and 3 are pretty common in high milage motors. #2 is often assembly screwup or over-reving the motor..not enough lash on the valves, way too much lash on the valves, bent push-rod, not enough clearance in the valve springs. #4 is just plain stupid s*&% (Like using a flat tappet lifter on a roller cam or vise-versa.)

So, in sum, you don't really have a problem with the lifters themselves (or at least it's unlikely you have a problem with the lifters.) The symptoms are more like a weak oiling system or excessive wear that's keeping the oil pressure from comming up fast.

If you want to hear for yourself what a bad lifter sounds like, warm the motor up, take off a valve cover, then with the motor running, loosen one of the rockers till it rattles then tighten it back up again. This gets a little messy, but it's the old school way of setting the lash on solid lifter valve train. (NOTE: This is just for the purposes of demonstrating the sound of a bad lifter, this is NOT the correct procedure for setting the lash on a HYDRAULIC lifter.)

Heres a video of mine

John, Does yours sound like this?

https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g...Picture679.jpg

No Ryan. That doesn't sound QUITE like mine. Mine is a fast, sharp tick.

I am taking a video in the morning. When its really..REALLY cold.

Ok I am doing an oil change on Saturday...

I was just looking on Advance's website and noticed these "crankcase flushes"

This one looks good and was wondering if maybe I should try something like this to make sort of a clean slate on those lifters before the new mobil 1 and slick 50 goes in.

http://www.partsamerica.com/product_.../crc/05375.jpg

Are these somewhat effective? I mean I know these 3800s don't have notorious sludge problems or anything but still. If I AM having a oil pressure/flow/circulation problem, this might remedy that a bit.

Sorry the video is taking so long. It was too big to upload to photobucket and no other place online will take it because of its size.

So I am re-rendering it to WMV so that it can be viewed directly in Windows Media Player.

It says about 45 more minutes. So...yeah, now we wait.

I got a good video. The tick was DEFINITELY there.

Great explanation Curt... ;)


John, I get lifter chatter which goes away in about a minute.... When I say lifter chatter I mean this in the lightest possible way... Normal cold start for me.. Coldest I have seen here was roughly 29F.... But the LE started as it always did....

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OK, you wanted a vid...you got a vid.

spent all morning converting and rerendering it :roll:

Here it is

Hard to say... That does sound like a Bad lifter... But the Audio makes it hard to tell... I'd say that sounds like a single lifter...

Anyone have any other thoughts?

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Im doing that oil change tomorrow...i still need a comment on that engine flush!!! Is it worth it?!

That'll do..

Skip the engine flush.. let's not add any other variables to the experiment. ;)

Ok. not doing the engine flush.

I just got the mobil 1, delco filter, and slick 50 tonight and will be changing it all tomorrow morning. We'll see how it goes.

My hopeful fix for my faithful engine:

https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f...7/DSCN2409.jpg
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f...7/DSCN2410.jpg
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f...7/DSCN2411.jpg

Whoa!!! hang on there!! Thats 5w30????? These motors require 10w30!

Well, I use 10w30 Mobil one synthetic. My motor runs very well, and I mean, very well. Transaxle shifts wonderfully, locks up, and stays locked. Not bad for a car with 278,000 kms on it ehh?


But I recommend using the factory 10w30 specs. Or maybe going to an even higher grade, like 15w30 (if there is such a type avalible.)

naw, our motors use 5W-30

87-89 motors say 5w30 90-91 motors say 10w30. Either way I wouldn't run 10w30 in the winter, 5w-30 all the way.

I run 5W-30 Winter and 10W-30 In the summer. Its the way things work. :D

Update on the engine:

I changed the oil IMMEDIATELY after getting home from some high speed highway cruising...let me just tell you something. That oil. Was. Hot. :lol: Let it just be known, NOT to do that.

On the upside, I got it all out without any serious casualties and then refilled with the Mobil 1 and Slick 50. WOW, that slick 50 looks like goopy vasaline! :lol: I never woulda guessed.

But the news is that right after I started it up it started to tick, but it went away almost IMMEDIATELY, it was good. It is actually running QUIETER allover than it did before. Its great. AND, im not sure if its kind of a placebo effect of the slick 50 or something, but it seemed to have a little more get up and go! It was good. And if anyone is wondering if I let it work in, I ran over to the adjacent town for a bit and kept it running, so it got worked in for about 30 mins and then a bit more. So at least I know its REALLY worked in there. So anyways thats what is goin on now. I am waiting for it to be really cold again to take a new video of that lifter. We'll SEE!

Thanks for the help with this guys, it really is appreciated.

just getting caught up on my reading. i noticed you were commenting on the slick 50. when my bonneville still belonged to my aunt, the first winter she was down here i started servicing the car. i noticed in winter a fast clatter on a cold winter morning from start up till about the 50-60 second mark. asked the garage and he recommended slick 50. put it in the next oil change. that would have been winter of 2003-2004. it just started ticking again this winter, which is about 30,000k(18,000m?) later. the car uses about 1 litre of 5-w30 between changes which is about every 5,000k(3,000m). i'm going to get a can of slick 50 tossed in next oil change. i figure one can every couple years can't hurt and seems to help.

For high mileage engines they recommend one at every oil change.

i wouldn't disagree with you but my wallet begs to differ.i try and take care of my cars but i'm also cheap! when it starts to tick again we'll throw some more in. ;)

I can understand that, I'm in the same position.

But I will say that if this is ends up stopping my lifter from ticking, then that would mean it is lubricating the crankcase MUCH more efficently than regular oil, or even synthetic oil for that matter! If it does make it go away, I think I will be sticking with this product for many oil changes to come. We'll see!

Now we're just waiting for another very cold morning to take that "after" video.

The regular slick 50, exactly like the picture you sent me John :roll: Not the high mileage one ... lol

The standard one should say add once about every 50K miles.. It's not overly thick either.

That garage sounds awfully loud :lol:

As with the 5-30 in the winter, I agree. You don't need to worry about viscosity like you do in the summer