Ever consider yanking out the TEVES?
05-13-2005, 05:51 PM
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Ever consider yanking out the TEVES?
I have... Even before the engine swap plan. I ran across an article that gives some details from the perspective of a Trofeo owner. It should be a very similar procedure for the Bonnevilles:
The parts listed should probably be from a Bonneville donor but others might work. This swap just made it on my To Do list.
Anyone have a vacuum assisted brake system in a parts car???
THE BRAKE SWAP by Garey.
The brake swap was pretty much as simple as replacing the master cylinder and brake booster but it did have a couple of catches, doesn't everything?
The only somewhat tricky thing to the swap was the missing fourth brake line. The Anti-Lock Teves models only have three brake line coming off of its master cylinder, one to each front wheel and a single line going to the back two wheels via a splitter located near the left rear wheel. The splitter will need to come out and a coupler installed in it place so that line can be dedicated to the right rear wheel.
Now, the replacement non-antilock brake master cylinders require four brake lines, one to each wheel. So you will need to have a brake shop install a fourth line to the left rear wheel or you can obtain one from a salvage yard Trofeo. This method is cheaper and can be done your self. Either way it will work. Just don’t kink the line removing it from the donor car or it trash.
The original brake lines mount to the underneath side of the Teves Unit. When the Teves system is removed by removing the four bolts under the dash you will see three brake lines pointing upward in the engine compartment. The Teves System is really heavy so you may want to have someone hold it while the bolts are removed. Take care not to kink any of the three lines, as you will need to reuse them. They will need to manipulated into a 90-degree position facing the passenger side of the car in order to meet up with the new master cylinder, which will require a little work. Take your time here. The last thing you want to do is kink the lines.
Once you have the fourth brake line installed and the splitter removed from the third brake line and a coupler connecting it to the right rear wheel line at the rear axle, you can now prepare to install the new Power Brake Booster and Master Cylinder but there is one more thing to take care of and that is the brake pedal.
The Antilock brake pedal itself has a larger diameter-mounting stud for the Teves master cylinder to connect to. The new non-antilock booster will have a smaller eyelet opening and will not fit the Antilock brake pedal. So, you have two options at this point. You can use a drimel type tool and enlarge the opening on the new brake booster eyelet to accommodate the antilock brake pedal or you can obtain a non anti-lock brake pedal from a salvage yard Trofeo just like the brake line. You can also purchase one at a dealer but that might run a little money. You will know the non-antilock pedal because it won’t be stamped “ANTILOCK” on the face.
The brake pedal is removed by a removing the single nut and 2” bolt under the dash panel that passes through the pedal arm.
Oh yeah, the several power and signaling cables that hook to the Teves system can be taped off and secured out of the way. I don’t advise cutting them off because it could set a code. The antilock brake computer in the trunk can be left there as well. Again, it could set a code if removed. It didn’t bother me at all to leave it there.
Once your done and everything is back together, the new master cylinder itself and the brake lines with have to be bled thoroughly to remove all of the air in the system otherwise you will have no stopping power. That is a two-man job. New Items for the Swap
Both are from a 1989 Trofeo Non Antilock Model so parts are available.
1- Master Cylinder for the same model year.
1- Power Brake Booster for the same model year.
The Master & Booster sometimes come as a cheaper combo at some parts stores.
The brake swap was pretty much as simple as replacing the master cylinder and brake booster but it did have a couple of catches, doesn't everything?
The only somewhat tricky thing to the swap was the missing fourth brake line. The Anti-Lock Teves models only have three brake line coming off of its master cylinder, one to each front wheel and a single line going to the back two wheels via a splitter located near the left rear wheel. The splitter will need to come out and a coupler installed in it place so that line can be dedicated to the right rear wheel.
Now, the replacement non-antilock brake master cylinders require four brake lines, one to each wheel. So you will need to have a brake shop install a fourth line to the left rear wheel or you can obtain one from a salvage yard Trofeo. This method is cheaper and can be done your self. Either way it will work. Just don’t kink the line removing it from the donor car or it trash.
The original brake lines mount to the underneath side of the Teves Unit. When the Teves system is removed by removing the four bolts under the dash you will see three brake lines pointing upward in the engine compartment. The Teves System is really heavy so you may want to have someone hold it while the bolts are removed. Take care not to kink any of the three lines, as you will need to reuse them. They will need to manipulated into a 90-degree position facing the passenger side of the car in order to meet up with the new master cylinder, which will require a little work. Take your time here. The last thing you want to do is kink the lines.
Once you have the fourth brake line installed and the splitter removed from the third brake line and a coupler connecting it to the right rear wheel line at the rear axle, you can now prepare to install the new Power Brake Booster and Master Cylinder but there is one more thing to take care of and that is the brake pedal.
The Antilock brake pedal itself has a larger diameter-mounting stud for the Teves master cylinder to connect to. The new non-antilock booster will have a smaller eyelet opening and will not fit the Antilock brake pedal. So, you have two options at this point. You can use a drimel type tool and enlarge the opening on the new brake booster eyelet to accommodate the antilock brake pedal or you can obtain a non anti-lock brake pedal from a salvage yard Trofeo just like the brake line. You can also purchase one at a dealer but that might run a little money. You will know the non-antilock pedal because it won’t be stamped “ANTILOCK” on the face.
The brake pedal is removed by a removing the single nut and 2” bolt under the dash panel that passes through the pedal arm.
Oh yeah, the several power and signaling cables that hook to the Teves system can be taped off and secured out of the way. I don’t advise cutting them off because it could set a code. The antilock brake computer in the trunk can be left there as well. Again, it could set a code if removed. It didn’t bother me at all to leave it there.
Once your done and everything is back together, the new master cylinder itself and the brake lines with have to be bled thoroughly to remove all of the air in the system otherwise you will have no stopping power. That is a two-man job. New Items for the Swap
Both are from a 1989 Trofeo Non Antilock Model so parts are available.
1- Master Cylinder for the same model year.
1- Power Brake Booster for the same model year.
The Master & Booster sometimes come as a cheaper combo at some parts stores.
Anyone have a vacuum assisted brake system in a parts car???
05-13-2005, 07:15 PM
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a) since the Bonneville is a disk/drum combination, there were several three line systems used in the RWD H-bodies (Monza, Sunbird) of the late 70'*. It might be easier to adapt one of those or possibly a Camaro/Firebird of the period since the fourth line is not needed.
b) if you decide to dump the TEVES I would be interested in one to dissect. Let me know.
b) if you decide to dump the TEVES I would be interested in one to dissect. Let me know.
05-13-2005, 07:31 PM
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Randy: Why do you want to eliminate the TEVES Brakes? Yeah, they are a bitch when they fail. But, an electronically pressurized master cylinder creates a LOT more pressure [not sure if that equals more braking force, but I would think so]. However, a vacuum assisted brake system only makes 1000-1500PSI.
Down the line, I may change my opinion if I run into problems with it, but for now I am content with the TEVES brakes.
-justin
Down the line, I may change my opinion if I run into problems with it, but for now I am content with the TEVES brakes.
-justin
05-13-2005, 10:45 PM
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In the Utopian world that I sometimes live in, I would have 4 wheel disc brakes. But, since this isn't the ideal world, I'd like my brakes to perfrom noticibly beter than they do right now. It'* getting back to simplicity that is so attractive to me. I've even considered emailing aftermarket manufacturers to see if they have a brake system for these cars. I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I just want something that will work better than what I currently have and support the mods that I have planned.
Padgett, I posted a thread a while back that linked to a TEVES master cylinder. I'm surprised that you didn't respond. But anyway, if I manage to do the swap, then you are first in line for what comes out.
Padgett, I posted a thread a while back that linked to a TEVES master cylinder. I'm surprised that you didn't respond. But anyway, if I manage to do the swap, then you are first in line for what comes out.
05-14-2005, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by opensourceguy
Randy: Why do you want to eliminate the TEVES Brakes? Yeah, they are a B**** when they fail. But, an electronically pressurized master cylinder creates a LOT more pressure [not sure if that equals more braking force, but I would think so]. However, a vacuum assisted brake system only makes 1000-1500PSI.
Down the line, I may change my opinion if I run into problems with it, but for now I am content with the TEVES brakes.
-justin
Down the line, I may change my opinion if I run into problems with it, but for now I am content with the TEVES brakes.
-justin
05-14-2005, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by repinS
Originally Posted by opensourceguy
Randy: Why do you want to eliminate the TEVES Brakes? Yeah, they are a B**** when they fail. But, an electronically pressurized master cylinder creates a LOT more pressure [not sure if that equals more braking force, but I would think so]. However, a vacuum assisted brake system only makes 1000-1500PSI.
Down the line, I may change my opinion if I run into problems with it, but for now I am content with the TEVES brakes.
-justin
Down the line, I may change my opinion if I run into problems with it, but for now I am content with the TEVES brakes.
-justin
05-14-2005, 12:03 PM
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Guess I missed that one (do sometimes). My first car had four wheel disks and frankly have never seen any advantage off the race trace, in a street car it is more a marketting issue.
Rear disks (which only do about 20% of the braking unless you are going backwards in a RWD car, evel less with FWD) do make it very difficult to have a properly functioning emergency/parking brake and has been the subject of at least one GM/NHTSA recall that I know of. Some manufacturers even resorted to putting a little drum inside the rear disks.
Be glad you have drums because otherwise you might be subject to the dread rattle.
All of my cars have front disks, no question they are better than drums in this use (though I once had a 63 Sting Ray with giant drums that had little fans in them that never faded or locked). Since I sold the Fiero, only the Reatta has four wheel disks. Would be difficult but I suppose you could adapt the Riviera/Reatta rear disks to a Bonneville. Would be much better to go to 16" wheels and Aurora fronts first though. Think you just need to increase the size of two holes in the steering knuckle but will not fit a 15" wheel.
If you do change from drums to disks, don't forget that the valving in the master cyl is also different as is the proportioning valve.
I like ABS despite the fact that a very experienced driver can usually stop faster without. On the race track you are very focused on what is going on. On the highway it is possible to be surprised and any sudden reaction is usually wrong. In this case ABS is definately the way to go.
Rear disks (which only do about 20% of the braking unless you are going backwards in a RWD car, evel less with FWD) do make it very difficult to have a properly functioning emergency/parking brake and has been the subject of at least one GM/NHTSA recall that I know of. Some manufacturers even resorted to putting a little drum inside the rear disks.
Be glad you have drums because otherwise you might be subject to the dread rattle.
All of my cars have front disks, no question they are better than drums in this use (though I once had a 63 Sting Ray with giant drums that had little fans in them that never faded or locked). Since I sold the Fiero, only the Reatta has four wheel disks. Would be difficult but I suppose you could adapt the Riviera/Reatta rear disks to a Bonneville. Would be much better to go to 16" wheels and Aurora fronts first though. Think you just need to increase the size of two holes in the steering knuckle but will not fit a 15" wheel.
If you do change from drums to disks, don't forget that the valving in the master cyl is also different as is the proportioning valve.
I like ABS despite the fact that a very experienced driver can usually stop faster without. On the race track you are very focused on what is going on. On the highway it is possible to be surprised and any sudden reaction is usually wrong. In this case ABS is definately the way to go.
05-14-2005, 12:07 PM
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That'* why I said I wasn't sure if more pressure meaned more braking power, but I do know the pressure is up there with the electronic system.
-justin
-justin
05-14-2005, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by padgett
Rear disks (which only do about 20% of the braking unless you are going backwards in a RWD car, evel less with FWD) do make it very difficult to have a properly functioning emergency/parking brake and has been the subject of at least one GM/NHTSA recall that I know of. Some manufacturers even resorted to putting a little drum inside the rear disks.
Be glad you have drums because otherwise you might be subject to the dread rattle.
Be glad you have drums because otherwise you might be subject to the dread rattle.
Yer, that was the case with the old Toyota, which had vented rotors in the rear. Beats me why GM took until 2000 to put solid discs on the Bonneville.
05-16-2005, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by padgett
Rear disks (which only do about 20% of the braking unless you are going backwards in a RWD car, evel less with FWD) do make it very difficult to have a properly functioning emergency/parking brake and has been the subject of at least one GM/NHTSA recall that I know of.
GM settled a class action lawsuit for the '88 - '93 w-body 4 wheel ABS disc brakes a few years ago to the tune of $19.5 million.
Unfortunately, this was not a recall, but an agreement to reimburse money spent on brake repairs up through a certain deadline (which has long passed).
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