exhaust questions
 

Well, as you may know I do beleive there is a leak somewhere in my exhaust system. I've considered fixing it for sometime, but now I have some money and I'm thinking of doing an overhaul to my exhaust system.

I've listened to Merlins 91 flowmaster 80 (GODLY) and sse1990's magnaflow. I like them both - and they make me want to do this to my car. I was thinking about getting a high flow catalyst, a flowmaster 80 (or a magnaflow...havn't decided), and using the tips from an SSEi. How much would you think a job like this would cost with parts and labor if I go dual exhaust? Does dual add performance and sound, or is it more for looks? How much do you think the job would be without the dual?

I'm just thinking if it would be worth it or not for this car. It's tranny is rebuilt and in good condition. The engine runs fine, but leaks a bit of oil. Other then that it's in great shape.

Let me know what you guys think. If you guys have any more videos or sound clips it would be great if you could link me. And Merlin, do you have a video of your car idling?

Thanks

Don't get dual, worthless on our cars. You'll want a 2.25" exhaust. Merlin's '91 is the SWEETEST sounding car I have heard in a LONG time. I wouldn't get anything other than a Flowmaster [80 Series] for my car. Get any name brand high flow cat.. you'll be set with that along with some new tubing. The tubing is straight-forward. Wouldn't take long to fab one up. Just make sure the person doing the exhaust MANDERAL bends the tubing.. because crush bends are shit, and don't flow as well as the latter.


-justin

I think I got dual exhaust confused with dual outlet. With dual exhaust there are two mufflers and two seperate pipes but with dual outlet there is one inlet pipe and the muffler divides that into two outlet pipes? Is that correct?

After reading some reviews of the flowmaster I am sold (and Merlins video helped 8) ). I take it for the Bonne I should get a single inlet, dual outlet. Should the inlet and outlet size on the flowmaster be 2.25"?

I just ordered a new O2 sensor as well, and I think I'm going to do the rice pipe mod. When I'm done I think this setup is going to be pretty sick...

Oh, and what is involved with putting the tips on the end of the pipes? Is that something I can do myself?

to put the tips on the new muffler I'm guessing you have to just weld the tips on or clamp them on (may look ugly if clamped on). Other than that i guess you MAY need to saw the muffler's outlet so that your tips dont stick out too much (but that all depends on how long the muffler's natural outlet is). That's all i can thinkof,, i miss anything anyone?

I'd say get some nice tips! The Double Outlet will be great on that car, I figure that the only cost difference is 1 welded pipe, and a second tip, and a lil more labor, for a much more authentic domestic look to go with the sound. :wink:

I'll get some nice tips indeed. After looking at some flowmasters on the internet it seems the smallest size is 2.5". Does that sound right? Second...if my exhaust tubing is still in good shape and not rusted through, it should be ok to leave them (or at least just leave the longest sections before it gets to the muffler)? I'm going to get the high flow cat and flowmaster regardless - I just don't want to be spending too much at once...

thanks

Yeah, you'll be fine.. but drop the exhaust an inspect it first.. it isn't tough. Two bolts on the rear header.. those are a BITCH to get off.. you need a CV-Joint socket to get it off.. and about 12" in extensions... not to mention a TON of strength. Once you get those bolts off, it is just two hangers.. each with two rubber band type things that hold it on.. they take a little manuevering to get off.. so just play around with them and they'll come off.

The dual outlet exhaust is the N10 muffler.. personally I would just have a single tip.. but it's all up to you. If the smallest muffler diameter you can get is 2.5" then you must get an adaptor that converts the 2.25" to 2.5" and you will probably need to cut a little extra pipe off. Are you planning on doing this yourself or is a shop doing it?


-justin

I'm most likely going to get this done at a shop. I think I will just start off with the muffler and the extra piping after the muffler, and get the cat done at a later date. I always hate blowing all my money when I get it...I think I'm going to take it one step at time.

Also: Is there any problems buying used mufflers? Such as one like this. They are a helluva lot cheaper...

I'm going through an exhaust replacement as well. Our cars (SSE's) are 2.25" with Dual output mufflers to the right side. The Cat is 4 inches tall, body of 14", and length of 16". The muffler is 18" body, 28" length, and 5" tall. All measurements were accurately taken while on my back in the driveway with a money tape measure.

GM Part numbers

Cat - 25100635 $743.00
Muffler - 25528696 (25552824) $??? Discontinued???
Intermediate pipe - 25552819 (25533276) $166.00

Anywho, I just got a quote from a speed shop. I'm going to 2.5" Magnaflow Cat, and Muffler. And bending new pipes. All stainless steel. $659. About $550 for non stainless. I'm going get some more quotes this weekeend.

Hope it helps.

That does help alot. Thats alot of money. Is the muffler welded into the system, or is it all just clamped together? I think I'm just going to get the muffler first and try to just incorperate it into the existing system. Is that something I can do myself, or does it require some special tools to get apart?

It's welded, a simple dremel/angle grinder with a cutoff wheel will go right through it. $30 @ walmart for a black and decker grinder will get it off. However if you have the muffler welded on at a shop (cleaner) then do both at once, as it'll be cheaper for labor, etc.

If your pipe is like the 92-99 ones, then that's Stainless steel, your pipe will be fine, just a little surface rust.

I got mine "used". Basically it was put on, driven around that day, and taken off.

Luckily, I do in fact have a dremel and I have modified quite few non-car related with the cut off discs. I'm pretty cheap - but I'll call around for some quotes first. If I were to do it myself I would do it like this I guess -

1. Dremel off the pipes at the muffler connections
2. Get some 2.5" to 2.25" reducers and connect the muffler to the pipes.
3. Get some 2.25" clamps and secure them over the connections.

I'm going to take a look under the car today to see if I can get a good idea on what it looks like down there and if my pipes are still in good condition.

The cutoff wheel will do you just about no good on the exhaust. You need a grinder. Even my grinder would take a few minutes to get through the exhaust. If you are reducing the pipe.. I suggest you get it welded, because all that play isn't going to be good. If you weren't reducing it, then it would probably be cool. Here's what I would do.

-Drop exhaust [two hangers, four rubber band type things holding them to the frame].
-Cut off muffler and cat
-Put on new cat [cut exhaust to size, to fit perfectly]. [using muffler clamps]
-Put on new muffler [using muffler clamps] and cut to size..
-Re-hang exhaust and check fittings and play.
-Drive around and get quotes to just weld the cat and muffler on. Even though I wouldn't do this step, I would still recommend it. I would also recommend doing both muffler and cat at the same time, just because they go hand-in-hand. Plus you will see more of a performance gain..

Oh yeah, and that used muffler.. that'll do fine. I may really like used stuff.. but some things you just don't buy used.. like underwear. Don't buy one that has rust, major dents, or that doesn't have a box.. usually if it has a box that means it isn't 50 years old.. people only keep boxes for so long [well.. the majority of them].


-justin

That sounds like a good plan OSG. I called a Canadian muffler specialty shop for a quote and I learned some interesting information. Here it is legal to straight pipe the catalyst if the car is pre 1995. Is this something I could do to the Bonneville with no side effects like back pressure?

Anyway, with the cat. straight piped and the Flowmaster 80 installed he said it would cost me about $120CDN (If I brought the flowmaster in). He said for a little more they could fabricate the sort of false dual exhaust pipe for me.

So - is it ok for me to remove the cat? And also, should it sound just as good without the cat as it would with one?

thanks - you guys have been great as always!

I'm going to suggest against removing the cat. Unless you have a serious 1320 car, you need one. The sound probably would differ.. but I doubt you'd notice it.

If the 'fabricated' exhaust is just a pipe that doesn't allow any exhaust gases out, I wouldn't do it. Otherwise, I guess it's fine.. but in the winter, you will have more exhaust out of one pipe, than the other.. and I don't know about you, but that looks retarded everytime I see that.. but hey, it's your car. It's all about looks, you aren't going to gain any performance from dual versus single, unless you changed the exhaust routed, and had a 'true' dual for each cylinder bank..


-justin

Alright, I think I'll buy this. And the fabricated one will let exhaust out, although the winter thing is a good point.[/url]

Come to think of it...should I get:

CARK94005 - 2-1/4" In/Out, 94000 SeriesMagnaflow Catalytic Converter
CARK94015 2-1/4" In/Out W/Air, 94000 Series Magnaflow Catalytic Converter

Yep, that'll do fine. There is a site.. www.justmagnaflow.com they have the goods man.. apparently the best prices. Just shop around a little.

I don't know if you can.. but you may be able to clear up the un-even exhaust distribution by putting in an X-Pipe.. but at that point, you may be beating a dead horse because it isn't going to increase power.. but I don't know for sure. I know the X-Pipe clears up the un-even distribution on RWD cars that have a 'true' dual exhaust.. but since the X-Pipe would be pretty far back, I don't know how effective it would be. Something another member may be able to answer.


-justin

I thought this might be of interest to you.

http://www.rockauto.com/ref/Walker/Detail.html?1329.gif


-justin

Hmm some interesting facts there "NOTE: O.E. system (incuding convereter) is completely welded". Mine are welded all the way do that mean that's a original system i got??
:?

/Poke

Thats a nice diagram...and Poke, if it's welded it could be the stock system and it's entirly possible that it's aftermarket. It could have been welded thent too.

That guy on ebay won't ship to Canada, so I will probably get it from justmagnaflow. They don't allow online ordering for Canada, so I need to long-distance call them to order.

Shipping to Canada can be a pain at times...

edit: Does anyone know if Eastern Highflow cats are alright? They are cheaper then the Magnaflow, and the only difference I can see is that they are only rated for:

Max Engine: 4.0L
Test Weight: 4,250 lbs

With the cat being welded to the rest of the exhaust system, that could be stock, or aftermarket. If the weld looks like hell, and isn't the least bit even, it's probably factory. I wish you guys could see my cat and muffler welds.. they are disgusting.. and my headers.. don't even get me started on those! But yeah.. captainmiller.. if you want, I am sure we could arrange something. Ship it here, then me ship to you [at your cost]. But, at that point, it may not be cheaper. Just food for thought; PM me if you are interested.


-justin

Thanks for the offer. I was going to ask around to do something like that, but I found a store on ebay that has the cat and muffler I'm buying and he'll combine the shipping for both the items, so I'm happy.

I got the flowmaster 80 and magnaflow HF cat. for $124.57 + shipping (US). I think thats a pretty reasonable price.

Hell yes that is a good price! I think it is $150 for the 80 Series through Jeg's.. so an easy $250-$300 with a cat [new]. Plus the CDN Dollar is doing fairly well [actually the US dollar is doing horribly], so it won't be all that much in CDN, just all the more advantages for you.


-justin

Then i probably got a stock system cos the weldings are pretty neat!!
How the H*** did the system survived 14 years and 10 owners in Sweden
with extreme salty winter roads???
It got a bit of leakage now witch making it sound pretty nice :twisted:

/Poke

Eh.. stuff like this lasts forever, just may not work it's best. Mine is original.

A cat can last forever, I believe, it just may fall apart [on the inside] and just be a big restriction more than anything.


-justin

Total came out to US $148.63 shipped.

These are new parts as well. The flowmaster was $70 US and the cat was about $57 US.

I'm really happy right now. :D

Yep, same here. Only my muffler is a little rusty.. everything else is just a little discoloured from the age. Cat isn't the same metal as the rest of the exhaust, and it doesn't have a spot of rust. All beautiful, but I am suspecting it being clogged because I hear water boil whenever I splash into a puddle..


-justin

I got the equipment today and it looks awesome, althought I think installation is going to be harder (or at least more expensive) then first predicted. First of all, I can't keep the two stock outlets where they are, they will need to be seperated (you will understand when you look at the diagram). That doesn't really concern me, since I wanted it done anyway. But, the inlet on the 80 series is one "slot" if you will back from the stock setup, making the pipe going to the muffler hit it at an odd angle, and it will be too long. So what are they going to have to do to make the pipe shorter and bend so it will meet up to the muffler correctly?

Comparison to see what the fool is talking about.

Minty fresh exhaust parts.

Anyway, I'll get the estimate tomorrow.

I have the magnaflow on mine and it was the exact same setup. I had dual outlet on one side wich I didn't like. I know what you mean about the weird setup for the exhaust.

one thing to think about, wich I think we did on mine. The inlet is actually placed closest to the bumper and the outlet is closer to the passenger compartment. So the muffler actually sits at a bit of an angle but allowed for the inlet to go right in like the stock setup. Then the outlet has a different bend on it to go out and I think we actually tacked the outlet onto the inlet for support.

Sounds pretty strange but I will see if I can take your pic and edit it to show you, or see if I have any kind of pics of the setup under the car.

That would be great, I'm pretty sure I understand what you are saying. Did you do that yourself or did you get it done at a shop?

Had it done at a shop, but it was a good friend of mine that I have known for like 16+ years that did it. He is my mechanic too now.

AND NOW FOR THE PICS, lol.




Here is the old setup coming off the car
http://www.malibuclub.ca/new_muffler...30th%20004.jpg

B-Bye old and busted
http://www.malibuclub.ca/new_muffler...30th%20005.jpg

Hmmm looks empty under there
http://www.malibuclub.ca/new_muffler...30th%20007.jpg

Here is the beginning of the new setup
http://www.malibuclub.ca/new_muffler...30th%20008.jpg

Here it is pretty much done

http://www.malibuclub.ca/new_muffler...30th%20013.jpg

BUT




something looks like it is missing

http://www.malibuclub.ca/new_muffler...30th%20014.jpg

Nope something still missing, OH notice that we re-used the old bends that were used on the stock muffler, since we had just installed it a few months earlier, and they didn't have any way of bending any pipe, they are not a muffler shop, just a regular garage.

There we go, that is better, hard to tell at this angle though, stock tips from an SSEi thanks to DriverJohn2005.

http://www.malibuclub.ca/new_muffler...30th%20012.jpg

Here is a better view outside.

http://www.malibuclub.ca/new_muffler...11th%20016.jpg


Hope this helps you out.

That helps so much! Thanks a bunch. I just realized now your the one whose videos I have with thtat amazing exhaust. :D

Now are those tips off an SSEi? Because thats what I was planning on doing. How much clearance do you think was left for those to fit on? And also, all "friends" deals aside, how much did the labor cost you?

Thanks for answering all my questions, now I can go in and know what I'm asking for.

Yep those are stock tips from an SSEi thanks to driverjohn2005. I paid the shop hourly rate. So depending on who does it, I think I paid for an hour or so, but I think I had more work done at the same time. I was probably close to 100$ for the installation.

Those tips are put on in a very simple, ingenious way. Take the stock tips, drill a couple holes at the right spacing and insert a regular muffler clamp into it. So the muffler clamp goes around the muffler and the ends go through the tips and the nuts are on top of the tips. You can adjust the height of the tailpipes as it is getting installed. I wanted it to sit high enough and rest against the rear valance, I didn't want any gap to it.

Perfect. I'll keep you guys up to date, and there will be videos/sound clips. Hopefully I can get down to a wrecker and pick up some SSEi tips as well.

Thanks again.

I went for the estimate and decided I had time to get it done. Cost me $143 canadian installed. They mounded the muffler flush with the car and just made a pipe that went around the outlet that was screwing things up. It sounds amazing - better then I imagined. It has a nice low roar/grumble between 2000-3000 rpms. Not obnoxiously loud, just enough to hear it coming. It's very deep, throaty and mean. :twisted:

Now the dork at the school parking lot with the '98 Cavalier with the fart cannon has been put to shame, and the skeptical guy at the muffler shop was impressed.

Now to get some SSEi tips on that sucker.

Oh, and videos/pics to come...it's crappy outside right now.

Hey sse1990, that exhaust looks and sounds great. I also have a 90 White SSE and still have the original exhaust on it. The car has over 450,000 km. on it. Unfortunately it has fuel pump problems so it's been sitting in the driveway for weeks due to the weather. Maybe I should look into replacing the exhaust also, but right now I'm not to happy with her cause the pump went just after I replaced the starter. Started twice then pffffffft. guess it was upset with me...don't know why?

At 450,000kms on it it's just OLD, LOL.


I spent probably 2,500$ to get mine on the road including a new tank and about 2-3 months later I had to drop the tank to change the fuel pump.
I actually had the work done for me, by the same guy that did the exhaust.

Having someone else do it sounds like a good idea, unfortunately it won't even start right now. The cost of towing and having someone repair it is just too much right now. I was hoping it would get warmer soon. Oh well I have my fingers crossed.

Here are some pictures.

Here are the 2.5" tailpipes. They have a bit of clearence under the bumper to allow for tips in the future, if I even decide to get some. (Sorry about the car - its beyond filthy, but my doors freeze up if I get a carwash, and the roads are a mess. )

http://members.shaw.ca/bmcguire/tailpipe.jpg

This is how the exhaust was setup to allow for the new muffler.

http://members.shaw.ca/bmcguire/under.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/bmcguire/under2.jpg

I love the duals - there is an equal amount of exhaust coming from them so it looks great. This project couldn't have worked out any better.

The first thing I seen was how dirty the car was. I have the same problem when going to the car wash, well actually Renee has the problem, LOL.

Looks similar to how mine was setup under the car for clrearance.



Lookin good.