Series 1 Intercooler. working well, VIDS on page 11.
01-23-2008, 11:29 PM
#1
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Series 1 Intercooler. working well, VIDS on page 11.
Yup. You read right. Too long in coming, and a long time I've been at it.
There are some unique challenges that the S2 doesn't have. First and foremost is the cost. Let'* be honest, some of us drive Series 1 L67'* because we can't afford more (or just love the low-end grunt too much). But you can't raise a supercharger very easily on the S1 without adding VERY significant cost because of fuel rail/injector reach and the nosedrive stud going through the accessory bracket. I'm not going to go into the mechanics of how to avoid that in this topic tonight, because I've figured that out already, and really that little problem is insignificant compared to making an efficient heat exchanger.
For the Series 1, you don't need the level of intercooling you need with the Series 2. I can already run a 2.2" pulley on a 94/95 Gen3 setup with zero KR on a 95 degree day, and most guys (properly tuned) can run a 2.2 on a mostly stock Gen2 and a 2.5 on a mostly stock Gen3, so how much do you REALLY need to be able to run a 2" pulley on either?
The answer is not much. The full-stack intercoolers for the Series 2 drop the post-rotor temperatures by about 130-150 degrees. The ZZP short stack droops temps by 82 degrees and allows a .2" drop in pulley size. That'* roughly .3 or .4 drop on a Series 1. I only need .2" to get there. So I need about half the efficiency of the ZZP SS intercooler.
How hot can you make the plenum in a bench test in the kitchen? Not really hot enough, but enough to know it'* going to work. Full and final testing has to be done on the car from here, but it will gain. And this design WILL work on the Series 2 as well with minor modifications. The cost is significantly less than the ZZP SS intercooler, and doesn't require the purchase of different fuel rails or fuel injector spacers. Will it be AS efficient? No, but the hp/dollar ratio may be a bit better or equal, with less out of pocket, and it opens the door for the DIY guy looking to save a little money.
More details on the actual mechanics and the parts and sources will follow, but with this very successful test, it'* time to break the news.
The setup: Hacked LIM. Katie'* blow dryer on high, and an industrial heat gun on high, Plenum temperature was 175 when I kicked the pump on, and 180 peak before the drop, but it was still climbing. I have air bubbles in the system reducing it'* efficiency and the cooling fan for the radiator is on LOW in 70 degree ambient temperatures. Further testing is necessary, but I think this test shows promise.
Right click, save as:
20mb
http://www.zillamotorsports.com/S1intercooler20mb.wmv
5mb
http://www.zillamotorsports.com/S1intercooler5mb.wmv
What we have here isn't a real world test, but it shows great promise. A 70-degree drop in under 45 seconds is remarkable. Granted, the 'supercharger' isn't flowing at the same rate it really will, but at the same time, the front end isn't flowing or blowing nearly what it would either. To be honest, my goal was a 30 degree drop in real-world testing on the car, and I'm pretty sure I'll hit that. It'* all I need from the calculations I've run. Not to mention that you're not under boost ALL the time, and have 'recovery' time in between sprints, particularly between runs at the dragstrip. This gives you time to recover thermally before the next run, but can still be used full-time on a daily basis.
I have a little more invested than others will be able to do this for, simply because I had to buy, fit, try, buy, fit, etc. Not only that, but I'll be doing my own final machining on the real parts. That'll cost some guys, but you'll still come in under the similar costs for the S2, and it'* an option you never had before if you were Series 1. At ANY price.
Again, the actual fitment and mechanics of the pile of parts isn't a big deal at this point for me, but I'm not ready to cut that information loose yet. Trust that it WILL happen, but the Zilla needs to get a taste of this cool air in a real-world test with the new motor and no other changes (other than a dinky little LSD) to prove it. Then it'* all yours, as usual. I've already identified a S2 test car.
I'm pretty stoked about this. I have high hopes for the next phase of installation and testing. I've put a lot of time, thought, and hard-earned very carefully invested money into this, and it might just pay off. I can't wait to finish it up and then get back to finishing the variable-length runner L36 UIM project.
Some of the test parts:
Hacked up 'walled' test LIM:
Front core fitment:
Just playin' with parts:
There are some unique challenges that the S2 doesn't have. First and foremost is the cost. Let'* be honest, some of us drive Series 1 L67'* because we can't afford more (or just love the low-end grunt too much). But you can't raise a supercharger very easily on the S1 without adding VERY significant cost because of fuel rail/injector reach and the nosedrive stud going through the accessory bracket. I'm not going to go into the mechanics of how to avoid that in this topic tonight, because I've figured that out already, and really that little problem is insignificant compared to making an efficient heat exchanger.
For the Series 1, you don't need the level of intercooling you need with the Series 2. I can already run a 2.2" pulley on a 94/95 Gen3 setup with zero KR on a 95 degree day, and most guys (properly tuned) can run a 2.2 on a mostly stock Gen2 and a 2.5 on a mostly stock Gen3, so how much do you REALLY need to be able to run a 2" pulley on either?
The answer is not much. The full-stack intercoolers for the Series 2 drop the post-rotor temperatures by about 130-150 degrees. The ZZP short stack droops temps by 82 degrees and allows a .2" drop in pulley size. That'* roughly .3 or .4 drop on a Series 1. I only need .2" to get there. So I need about half the efficiency of the ZZP SS intercooler.
How hot can you make the plenum in a bench test in the kitchen? Not really hot enough, but enough to know it'* going to work. Full and final testing has to be done on the car from here, but it will gain. And this design WILL work on the Series 2 as well with minor modifications. The cost is significantly less than the ZZP SS intercooler, and doesn't require the purchase of different fuel rails or fuel injector spacers. Will it be AS efficient? No, but the hp/dollar ratio may be a bit better or equal, with less out of pocket, and it opens the door for the DIY guy looking to save a little money.
More details on the actual mechanics and the parts and sources will follow, but with this very successful test, it'* time to break the news.
The setup: Hacked LIM. Katie'* blow dryer on high, and an industrial heat gun on high, Plenum temperature was 175 when I kicked the pump on, and 180 peak before the drop, but it was still climbing. I have air bubbles in the system reducing it'* efficiency and the cooling fan for the radiator is on LOW in 70 degree ambient temperatures. Further testing is necessary, but I think this test shows promise.
Right click, save as:
20mb
http://www.zillamotorsports.com/S1intercooler20mb.wmv
5mb
http://www.zillamotorsports.com/S1intercooler5mb.wmv
What we have here isn't a real world test, but it shows great promise. A 70-degree drop in under 45 seconds is remarkable. Granted, the 'supercharger' isn't flowing at the same rate it really will, but at the same time, the front end isn't flowing or blowing nearly what it would either. To be honest, my goal was a 30 degree drop in real-world testing on the car, and I'm pretty sure I'll hit that. It'* all I need from the calculations I've run. Not to mention that you're not under boost ALL the time, and have 'recovery' time in between sprints, particularly between runs at the dragstrip. This gives you time to recover thermally before the next run, but can still be used full-time on a daily basis.
I have a little more invested than others will be able to do this for, simply because I had to buy, fit, try, buy, fit, etc. Not only that, but I'll be doing my own final machining on the real parts. That'll cost some guys, but you'll still come in under the similar costs for the S2, and it'* an option you never had before if you were Series 1. At ANY price.
Again, the actual fitment and mechanics of the pile of parts isn't a big deal at this point for me, but I'm not ready to cut that information loose yet. Trust that it WILL happen, but the Zilla needs to get a taste of this cool air in a real-world test with the new motor and no other changes (other than a dinky little LSD) to prove it. Then it'* all yours, as usual. I've already identified a S2 test car.
I'm pretty stoked about this. I have high hopes for the next phase of installation and testing. I've put a lot of time, thought, and hard-earned very carefully invested money into this, and it might just pay off. I can't wait to finish it up and then get back to finishing the variable-length runner L36 UIM project.
Some of the test parts:
Hacked up 'walled' test LIM:
Front core fitment:
Just playin' with parts:
01-23-2008, 11:55 PM
#2
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I got the phone call on this one.
I think you actually did ****, Bill. This is pretty exciting stuff, i remember talking about this..three years ago? Long time in the making, but now, something has been implimented!
That frickin thing cools SO quickly, thats insane. This is going to make a huge difference, especially with a 2.0"
Once that system is air tight, and in the car, you're gunna be golden..or green..or something
I think you actually did ****, Bill. This is pretty exciting stuff, i remember talking about this..three years ago? Long time in the making, but now, something has been implimented!
That frickin thing cools SO quickly, thats insane. This is going to make a huge difference, especially with a 2.0"
Once that system is air tight, and in the car, you're gunna be golden..or green..or something
01-24-2008, 12:29 AM
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Un fricken believable.
Bill, you are like the Eveready Bunny.......just keeps going and getting better and better.
Bill dropped his temp from 180 to 100 F.
That'* just as good as a short stack on a Gen3
The temperature drops as fast as when I spray my water injection.
I can drop my temp from 165 to about 90 F
But Bill has an S1
The real magic is how Bill plans to incorporate the heat exchanger into the LIM.
It will be a first and it will work.
I saw the CAD drawing.
Here'* to your success Bill.
I think I'll be doin some work on my spare LIM next winter.
Bill, you are like the Eveready Bunny.......just keeps going and getting better and better.
Bill dropped his temp from 180 to 100 F.
That'* just as good as a short stack on a Gen3
The temperature drops as fast as when I spray my water injection.
I can drop my temp from 165 to about 90 F
But Bill has an S1
The real magic is how Bill plans to incorporate the heat exchanger into the LIM.
It will be a first and it will work.
I saw the CAD drawing.
Here'* to your success Bill.
I think I'll be doin some work on my spare LIM next winter.
01-24-2008, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fuelforthesoul1999
I'm not real familar with intercoolers.
that'* going between the LIM and the supercharger?
that'* going between the LIM and the supercharger?
There is a small heat exchanger in the LIM such that the air exiting the supercharger must go through it before reaching the intake runners.
Another heat exchanger is placed in front of the radiator; connect everything with hoses and a pump then fill with water.
01-24-2008, 01:59 PM
#10
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I had a pretty high confidence level in this about 3 weeks ago when I did this:
Greyhare and I will be machining the LIM I'll use this evening. Then I'll port it along with another couple here for others. The SC will also be machined, but not tonight.
Greyhare and I will be machining the LIM I'll use this evening. Then I'll port it along with another couple here for others. The SC will also be machined, but not tonight.