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Old 11-02-2007, 03:34 PM   #21
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What do you want to see change? Corruption? That'* not built into the Constitution. Economy? That isn't either...

Should we have ammendments to state "no assholeism"?

I'm not sure I see what you are saying.

Our aid as a % of GDP may by almost the lowest, but the number in dollars is by far the highest, nearly double #2.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chr0mius
Should we have told Martin Luther King to move to Canada if he wants civil rights? Should we have told Susan B Anthony to just get out?
show me some proof of where either of them said "I Hate America!" or "**** America!"
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:37 PM   #23
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It should be noted that the "love it or leave it" principle is unamerican at best. wasnt america founded on "love it or change it"? "love it or leave it" was europes motto when they kicked us out, i seem to remember from my "history of the world before we modernized it" class.

i love america and i love what we can do. but im tired of living on reflected glory and im tired of living vicariously through the prior generations. we arent the military power we were. were not the altruists we think we are. we arent even the unified power we were. what we are is a has-been country that still has amazing potential to return to greatness.

we have a raw ability that has been failed to be utilized since we got our butts kicked in vietman (thanks, france). now, were living scared because someone had the audacity to question our "superiority" by flying planes into our buildings, and our economy shows it.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:49 PM   #24
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Major change in this country just isn't a reality. Civil war? Good luck. One half will have the military, the other... at best some semi auto rifles. Legislature? Find a majority that wants to give 2% GDP to other countries. Pull out of Iraq? Iffy. Chances are, they'd end up how they were before. I consider a lot of the money going into that war as aid, but I bet it'* not showing up in any of those charts.

What are you looking for to be better?
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Old 11-02-2007, 05:26 PM   #25
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I'm not necessarily in the love it or leave it crowd, I'm just tired of people bitching about how little we're doing, how terrible a country we are, when it'* just absolutely NOT TRUE! Whether you're for the "love it or leave it crowd" or not, show a little national pride!
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Old 11-02-2007, 05:34 PM   #26
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The economy does suck right now. I do not agree with anything Bush has done, but I am 100% behind our troops that are oversea'*, but I think it'* time for them to come home. In my opinion, we originally went there to go after Osama, then there we are in Iraq and getting Saddam. Yes, he is a threat, and yes I'm glad we got him, but the thing Bush and alot of the people in the White House I think have forgot it we went there to go to Afghanistan, not Iraq. Bring our guys home, let those countries over there deal with their own problems, close off our borders, and that be that. I have my views, but I support the USA, and I'm damn proud of what our guys are doing over there but enough is enough in my opinion. The longer we are there, the more we are pissing off those people. Bush is just trying to finish what his father started, and all he cares about is himself, the people behind them, and their money.

And I honestly believe once Bush is out of office, things in this country will get better. Yeah, were all having a hard time with the way things have been going, but we'll get through it.

As for all the product recalls and whatnot, that'* just people not doing their job. I'm sorry but the dog and cat food recall, ignorance. The lead paint recall, ignorance yet again. We haven't had these problems for years and all of a sudden they pop up? Lack of caring in my opinion.

And yes the news is nothing but bad anymore. Heck, half of the news is about women'* husbands killing them, or women disappearing, or kids getting shot while playing outside. In the past few weeks, 3 kids in Chicago have been killed due to gang violence, a pregnant woman died on Halloween trick or treating with her kids because of gang violence, and 3 women have gone missing, 2 were found dead, and one is still missing. It'* rediculous, throw the bastards in jail that cause all the rukas and don't let em out.
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Old 11-02-2007, 05:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Wikoff
Major change in this country just isn't a reality. Civil war? Good luck. One half will have the military, the other... at best some semi auto rifles. Legislature? Find a majority that wants to give 2% GDP to other countries. Pull out of Iraq? Iffy. Chances are, they'd end up how they were before. I consider a lot of the money going into that war as aid, but I bet it'* not showing up in any of those charts.

What are you looking for to be better?
That chart also shows "phantom" contributions, by which America falls under high phantom contribution and very low realistic contribution. Just like we can throw a lot of money into welfare and not do any good, we throw a lot of money into aid and not do any good.

The economy IS built into the constitution. Reading the original document, it'* easy to see how incredibly (and intentionally) vague it is. The legislature is allowed to take any legitimate action in order to regulate the economy, just as the federal branch is allowed to establish controls and regulations on the economy.

There are things we can do to help corruption. The methods for change are all outlined in the Constitution. The problem is motivation. People in America are not motivated for change.

It just bugs me when people act like you can't dislike America and live here at the same time. If you hate your neighborhood, you can leave OR you can make it a better place. If you don't agree with the people that want change, and the majority agrees with you, then you have nothing to fear. But, if most of the people want something to change, even if you disagree, the country should be allowed to adapt. You can't ask people to leave just because they hate the way things are. I'm pretty sure Martin Luther King and Susan B Anthony hated the way things were, but they were eloquent enough speakers to use better words in order to express themselves.

I'm not partial to foreigners saying they hate America, but I wouldn't say we have done nothing to deserve it.
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Old 11-02-2007, 06:07 PM   #28
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What'* a phantom contribution? Man hours? It'* free opinion as to which is better, money or action.

By the Constitution allowing legislation do what it can, the Constitution has no control. How can it? We'd have to make an amendment every time the situation changes... daily. And corruption? We have laws. Enforce them. You can't amend the Constitution to stop it.

Changing a nation is only plausible if it'* still developing. We already have all the civil liberty and criminal laws and all that. The only new laws left are for health reasons.

I will not accept a foreigner telling me he hates my country, but wants to be here anyway. If you came from somewhere eise that is better, why stay?
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Old 11-02-2007, 06:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_bonnie02
Bring our guys home, let those countries over there deal with their own problems, close off our borders, and that be that.
I, too, support the troops 100%. The problem that lies in withdrawing our troops from the area is that it creates a power vacuum in the entire region. One of the biggest threats for our allies in the area is Iran, which will likely move in if we left Iraq (or support a tribe that would ally with them). We have basically destroyed the infrastructure and government of an entire country, so leaving it will create a huge problem for the people that live there. What we did was terrible in the first place. We used false pretenses to start a war with Saddam (who was a terrible person), because Iraq had no more potential to attack America than any rogue terrorist group around the world does. It was just one of the several middle eastern countries that COULD have supplied terrorists with help. It wasn't even the most likely one, either. But what I'm trying to say is that the problems in Iraq are not the Iraqi'* problems. We created those problems. They had a stable government, running water, electricity, and services before we went in. If we left, that would all be gone and they would be going through civil war and possible genocide. Leaving Iraq will make matters worse, and just keep us from sharing in the inevitable misery of what we involved ourselves in. It should be noted the reason we left Saddam in place the first time was because many analysts in our government said that removing Saddam would create a power vacuum that would leave to civil war. Just look at the religions that live there, and the history of those religions. It'* no wonder they fight with each other.
I wish things were as simple as closing off our borders and leaving Iraq, but isolationism will not help our economy or our safety, and especially not our freedom. We're more globally involved than most other countries in the world. Getting rid of our bases and economic footholds around the world would be catastrophic for everyone.
The economy relies on every country around the world. The Great Depression wasn't great because of how bad it was, it was a global depression. German'* were motivated to war so easily because of the depression, and the prospect of economic strength and recovery from a war. America caused the global depression before, and we can cause it again if we don't act appropriately.
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Old 11-03-2007, 12:50 AM   #30
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it should be noted that around the great depression we raised tariffs which resulted in making the great depression much much worse than it had to be. more than that, it caused a global depression which countries like China are only in the beginnings of coming out of -- how much worse would it be if we became truly isolationist?

i dont care how we got to iraq, because its a moot point. how we got there will serve only to sidetrack us from the real issue. WE destroyed the government, its our responsibility to make sure the government that replaces it has the ability to defend itself. we cant do that simply by throwing money at them, we have to help secure their lands for them. and thats not easy or fast. we need to stay there until its done, or it will be our fault when there are worse atrocities than were there before because we pulled out.


what i hate about americans: i hate how little we value the elderly. i hate how little we value our children (look at our mortality rate among infants). i hate how little we value education.

these are not problems with america -- they are problems with AMERICANS. i hate our attitudes and behaviors. i hate how our interest in the bottom line has degraded our ability to provide true altruism. i hate how little we value educators in our society.

what do i want changed? i want our attitudes changed. tall order, but it can be done. children are our future, right?
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