The death of the Bonneville. Here's your chance to tell GM.
 

Use this topic to tell GM your thoughts and opinions on the recent killing of the Bonneville model, or reasons you believe it happened. This isn't a topic for open debate. Simply post your thoughts without responding to those before you. I'll point GM (Pontiac) to the topic when it looks like enough have posted.

I'll start:

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Like most commercial ventures, the market drives production. Sales dropped off causing Pontiac Division to revamp without the Bonneville in the lineup for 2006. So the question we need to ask is "why did sales drop off?"

Having been a fan of the Bonneville since the SSEi debuted in late 1991 with the 1992 model year, I compare what I loved about them (and the features that drove sales) to what we end with in 2005, and the path Pontiac took in that direction.

The major falling out in my opinion started in 2000 with the redesign. GM obviously wanted to replace the aged H body platform, and they did give it a good agressive look deserving of the Bonneville badging, but there were several things lacking that consumers wanted.

MY OPINION:

1. Seats are of poorer design. The 92-99 seats are renowned in the aftermarket applications, and many owners of other makes seek these seats to upgrade their other cars.

2. Handling was sacrificed. The CG of the car shifted too high and too far to the rear, giving the car a more boaty feel compared to the 92-99. I've experienced this myself. Even the GXP didn't get this problem resolved.

3. Putting a Cadillac drivetrain known for luxury cars into a 'sports sedan' gave the wrong impression. People that buy for performance want that seat-of-the-pants feel right off the line. The Northstar doesn't provide that. Most performance enthusiasts don't get the opportunity to use the power of the Northstar where it was intended (high speed passing). The L67 should have been updated and prevailed. It's a tougher drivetrain, more proven, and doesn't have some of the undeserved bad attention the Northstar has.

4. Who would buy a GXP for that price when you can get a Caddy for the same? What market was the GXP intended for? Especially at that price? I think demographics got a little mixed up there.

If as much attention to these 3 details had been applied as the exterior look and feel of the car, the 2000 would have been more successful, and sales would have stayed at a respectable level at least. And it got worse with the GXP instead of better. People want performance to back up the fluff.

I've driven dozen's of Bonnevilles from 92-05 now, and the best handling and powered (considering both values equally) and comfortable ended in 99. The GXP didn't impress me like I thought it would. I even went back and drove it a second time to measure my judgement of it. That GXP still sits on the lot unpurchased.

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BC members:
Remember to use this topic to express your opinion, beg with GM, or just cry. Don't use it to respond to other members or argue. Keep it clean and factual.

I feel that things went downhill for Bonneville after the 2000 model year. Why?



It was a Pontiac "flagship" with an interior seemingly lifted out of a Sunfire. The exterior styling was agressive, but the plastic body cladding turns people off. This was fixed with the cleaner, sleeker GXP, but with the aforementioned interior quality problem, the GXP is quickly (!) scratched off my list. The interior, is quite frankly, a DISASTER. GM managed to take the already low-rent plastics of previous models, fused them all together, and tossed the scraps in and called it a car worthy of your $35,000 USD. Bad.


Cost. Especially after the introduction of the GXP - one could buy a FASTER and BETTER performing REAR WHEEL DRIVE vehicle for less money. Case in point - the Infiniti G35 sedan - a large sedan with good room for UNDER $30,000 USD. Interior quality light years ahead of the sorry excuse for plastic that was used in the Pontiac. Straight-line performance that clearly and easily outdoes a GXP or SSEi. And the handling and road-holding to match. Handling and road-holding that a Bonneville - a nose-heavy front-driver - simply cannot match due to weight distribution. The car may handle well enough for many people's standards, but understeer will ALWAYS be prevalent. After all, this is Pontiac's sporty flagship sedan. It should do better than "most people's standards". Instead, we get tame brake and steering feel (although I will admit that there's worse out there) and floaty-boaty performance.


The Bonneville is FWD. This may have been acceptable in 2000 with the introduction of the now-dead body style. With the introduction of the GXP, the disadvantages of putting too much power to the front wheels became magnified with the introduction of DaimlerChrysler's full-size RWD offerings - the 300, Magnum, and Charger. With the advent of traction control and other stability management systems (some of which Pontiac was already using for the 1992 Bonneville SSEi), RWD is not nearly as much of a winter hazard as cars from decades past. The RWD also solves a lot of the handling issue, as weight is more neatly distributed front to rear.


Old technology. Why did GM have to wait until 2000 to finally boast rear disc brakes? The Toyota Cressida boasted VENTILATED rear discs by the time 1983 rolled around. It also boasted double overhead cams and an electronically controlled transmission (something the Bonneville picked up for 1992).


The 3800, while it was a great, reliable motor, was archaic. A new-design motor with the introduction of the 2000 model may have injected the Bonneville with some new-found vigor. Twin cams and four valves per cylinder should have been in that deal. The massive off-the-line torque of the supercharged L67 was from the supercharger. The same massive torque combined with MORE high-end horsepower would have been very achievable. While the decision to keep the 3800 in the GM fleet was likely not to blame for Bonneville's demise, a new engine (with proper development and reliability to avoid the fiasco garnered with the 3.4L DOHC motor of the 1990's) just might have gotten excitement in General Motors' sportier division taken up a notch or two.




Now, GM, you'd expect an argument like this to be put out by an older buyer who knows what they want in a car.



But I'm 17. Yes, seventeen. Any more lackluster efforts on your part, GM, and you'll be losing MANY more future customers. Why buy GM when there's faster, better, and (in some cases) cheaper out there?

After car shopping for some time I I finally settled with a 03 SLE. I would of have loved to of bought it brand new but I couldn't afford it. Do I think it's overpriced? NO WAY! I I would have bought it new in a second if I had the $$$. I can easily say it is THE MOST COMFORTABLE car I've ever driven.I do not agree with the dicontinuement. It is light years better than my 94 and I like it best than any other 4 door sedan on the market.I've been in all of them. .Problem is I don't think they advertised it enough. The only problem I see is that they should not have waited 5-10 years before coming out with a new model. That should be done every other year. I love my 03 SLE. I love everything about the car. The interior is the best in the business and how anybody would feel this car has a cheap feel is beyond me. Just my .02.

The Pontiac Bonneville is a car that everyone wants but you just don't know it. I belive what GM was going for was a car a lot like the Chrysler 300C. The only difference is Chrysler has played there cards correcty and didn't fold when they thought they thought they should give up. The Bonneville GXP was a shortfall, esp. in new feratures. Compare it to the unvailing of the 1992 Bonneville, esp the SSEi. In 1992, the Bonneville had inovating new features like HUD, Heated Windshield, Dual Front Airbags, ABS and Traction Control. These are all things the car market had never seen! It rivaled new Euro and Asia's hot new full size cars. The marketing back then was aggressive so the public knew about this great new car that Pontiac is putting out. It was a smash hit! Now, compared to this and the GXP, it never had a chance. GM seem to have not thought it through enough.

Lets start off with the powerplant. A Northstar V8 rated at 275 hp is not going to fuel anyones soul, esp. not now days. I can go out and buy a V6 Accord and hand a GXP it's rear end.

Ever heard of wrong wheel drive? That's what the Bonneville is. Wanna make this a "performance" sedan. The Torque steer you get from a Front wheel drive won't help you. Should have made the GXP a rear drive sedan.

Styling you finally got right. Only gripe is you should kept the fog light towards the center of the bumper instead of pushing them to the side. You had an awsome look going, shouldn't have gotten rid of it. You got finnaly lost the boy racer body clading and made it a lot smoother. Unfortunatly, too little, to late.

Interior, eh, another spot for improvment. What the heck is up with the Carbon Fiber look? Ok, the average bonneville owner is not a college student that will most likely end up buying a Scion with the same fake look to it. Seats, don't hold you in place. The Suede leather inserts were a good idea, but need some side support too to keep the body in the seat. Now, last I checked this is a full size sedan, am I wrong? I have more legroom in my friends Dodge Neon than I do in a Bonneville. Other than that, you just needed more luxury items like rear sunshade, just for starters.

I'd like to finally say that the Bonneville is worth saving. The market wants a performance full size sedan and Pontiac could give it to them through the name Bonneville. Go back to what I said earlier about the 300C. Chrysler is making MAD money off of it, arn't you looking for the customers that are leaving the Pontiac Dealership and going across the street to Mopar? You're making a mistake discontinuing the Bonneville.

Thank You,

John Simons
1992 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi Owner

I happen to live in a house with two Bonnevilles. A 1997 SE was the first car I drove, and we added a 2000 SE a few months later. Everyone in my family agrees that the 97 is the better car. It has more room, more comfortable seats, and has experienced less mechanical failures than the 2000. The only thing I like about the 2000 is that it has a more agressive exterior, but that would not convince me to buy one.

I understand that you will probably not bring back the Bonneville. I just hope that you learn from the past mistakes and build a new sedan that takes the best of the bonneville and improves it.

I'm sad to see the Bonneville name go away after such a long history, but perhaps it's just time for a fresh start. I don't really care what a car is called. I care about quality, comfort, reliability, performance. If it takes a new name to attract new customers, so be it.

I think that one of the downfalls of the newer Bonnevilles, at least for me, was that they were actually too gadgety. I like my cars simple. My '89 Bonneville LE has manual windows, no spoiler, no load leveling suspension, no dual-zone climate control, etc... and that's the way I like it. There's less to go wrong. Perhaps if quality of the car was put ahead of quantity of features in the later models, things would have turned out differently.

I've heard complaints about how long it took GM to "upgrade" the Bonneville to rear disc brakes and an overhead cam engine. Well personally, I don't care how the car stops, so long as it actually does in a reasonable distance, and I think that the 3800 is (was?) one of the best engines ever produced. I would prefer the 3800 to any other engine out there, regardless of how many cams or valves you cram into it. Sure, the Series II had some upper intake issues, but those were fixed in the Series III. I guess that all I'm trying to say is that the Bonneville didn't need a Northstar to impress me.

Looking to the future... I just hope that the car which replaces the Bonneville is done right. I can't claim to be the average car buyer, but here's a short list of what I value in a car:

1) Quality. My car doesn't have to be the fastest, have the best looking body. I do want it to be built to last though. Things like good paint that doesn't peel off in 10 years and upper intake manifolds that last the life of the car.

2) Reasonably easy to work on. I like to do work on my own cars. I don't want to pay someone who doesn't care about my car to work on my car, when I can do it myself and know that it's been done right. I love that I can do almost anything that my car may require, without too much trouble. I can change spark plugs without tipping the engine forward. I can see where my battery is. The water pump can be changed without lifting the engine. I don't want a cramped engine compartment without room to work in. If that makes the car slightly longer, so be it. I'll take function over form any day.

3) Reasonable price. I have the window sticker for my '89 somewhere, and the price was somewhere in the range of $13,000-14,000. What happened to the days when a man could buy a solid american sedan at a reasonable price? Sure, I know about inflation, but I don't think that inflation can be held completely responsible for the 1995 Bonneville base price of $28,690 - more than double what it was in '89. As I said before, I don't need every luxury feature known to man. I just want a solid, attractive, large american sedan at a reasonable price.

Is that too much to ask?

Another thing also is the GXP. Why not advertise the car? No ads, no commercial. How the heck is the public is suppose to know about the car when only the 'enthusiasts' know about the car? The GXP was never given a chance. :x I, myself, would have not hesitated in purchasing one had I not been on a tight budget with these fuel prices. But that's just me. Alot of people don't care about gas guzzlers. The GXP in my mind is a great car. Why not give it a chance?!? Instead of announcing it's demise, why not announce another upgrade. The 2k upgrade should have come in 95 or 96. I believe the 2k upgrade was great. I also had a 94 and I like my 03 better. Should have kept up the good work. I'm very disappointed. :cry:

Think back to when the Bonneville was redesigned in what, '92? It was bold. Previous GM's, and many other cars, were boxy, and in many cases, nondescript. GM has tried to get too much out of minor design changes over too many years. Bonneville didn't change much in 8 model years.

By the time they redesign something from the ground-up, the market is already saturated, and sales fall off.

Then came the 2000. They made the car better in many ways, but could have done more, especially considering the price.

As I see it, the biggest problems with the 2000+ Bonneville were;
1. the seats, which were more supportive in earlier models,
2. the torque management. How much better it would have been with a limited slip differential.
3. headroom. With the sunroof, I think they gave up too much headroom in front.
4. window regulators. 'Nuff said.

The other issues, like cladding and quality of plastic, etc. are pretty subjective. I honestly don't think the plastic was cheap, but the look of it was less crisp than other cars. Too toy-like, maybe? Who knows. I think the styling of the dash was great. Would it be better with faux wood trim? I don't see it that way.

I've said this before in previous posts. There are a zillion commercials for lexus, honda, mazda, but I hadn't seen a bonneville commercial in years. Combine that with some bad press (the plastic issue primarily) and people turn their noses up. The public is very fickle. When manufacturers are able to create a mistique, things sell. My sister in law has a Solara. I think the interior of that car is simply dull and cheesy. She's already had some issues with it, but "its a Toyota". So the perception is they have fewer problems than any other car.

GM....Why did you all change the power plant you all originally had for the GXP? The 270hp V-6 witht he Xenon foglamps, tinted headlamp covers, factory tined window, 19in rims and the K&N setup was the way to go! I would have saved my money just to hear that thing run! The northstar was a bad idea to me.

Too many choices and better choices then the GXP.

1/1,000,000 people would choose a 300c over a GXP.

There was a time when the Bonneville was one of the most powerful cars in its class for a lot less then the competition. Pontiac needs to get back to that.

the first car i owned was a 93 lumina with the 3.1 liter and that has a better power to weight ratio then my bonne geez you were even beat by a 91 mercury sable (you know the one with funny bar of lights stretched across the fron end) but performance aside i can take me and all my 180 puond 6 foot tall buddies out in comfort in my bonne the first think that happens when we go out as a group is lets pile up in the bonne the seats are very comfortable (92-99 models) ive been told. this changed though in 2000 for very good reasons you changed the boddy style but interior rating plummeted to the floor. and as for the GXP series i thought that was what GM was going for bringing back the SS and creating a overpowered family car like you did in the 60's that would be great if done the right way putting a smooth riding northstar as an "overpower engine" was a big mistake why not go the route you're taking with the grand prix GXP and put a genuine GM crate motor in it that would lower cost and boost sales and also give the bonne the unrestricted power it deserves after all bonneGXP has 275hp and the grand prixGXP has 303hp and i have driven both and the GPhas a better gear ratio and due to that you notice that 25 extra horses

so dont discountinue the bonne just refine the interior and get rid of the northstar for a stronger and cheaper GM 350 C.i. crate engine you would have me sold if you can do that... plusher seats and lowered prodution cost by engine/trans swap

What Pontiac needs is more "Car Guys", get back to basics.

Dump the GTO, wait 30 years, then come out with a Aussie "Ricer" and expect us to pay $35,000 for it. Did a face plant, didn't it? On top of that you did it 2 years in a row. You have what kind of education again?

I've driven Pontiac since I got my license in 1966, my first new car was a GTO. Have owned GTO's, Bonnie's, Montana's, Grand Am's, even had a crap Bonnie Diesel(worst piece of crap on the road, bar none). Gonna buy a new car this year, have a $45,000 budget...........Oh Geee Pontiac doesn't have Bonneville anymore or anything else for a "Baby Boomer" like me to buy. Even the "Welfare" Dodge people are smarter than that.

400 HP BENZ Looks kinda good to me

Sorry Pontiac, your head is to far up your butt for me anymore

ken

I like the 92-99's but they looked like an easter egg. The seats were great tho, but really had to many Buick Lesarbe parts on it. Clearly the 2000-2005 Bonneville was alot better looking. And the people that bitch about the Northstar are crazy for 35grand they best give you a world class V8! Guys you must rememeber the Avalons have VVT where as if the Bonnie did it would have 320hp! So the 275hp without seems like plenty but when you compare on paper people seem to think the Bonneville is a loser. The interior there is room for improvement I mean look at the Grand Prix (there good). Oh and don't get rid of the 3800! Add VVT and a few more poines 230 or so and call it the 'base' motor next time around! Kudos to GM for getting the styling right on the 2004-2005 GXP's and 2005 SLE's finally a car that looks as good as it drives! PONTIAC bring back the Bonneville name for its 50th anni. take some of this advice and build a 300(C) butt whipper! And yes I have riden in countless 92-99 Lesarbes and 92-99 Bonnevilles (road in a Lesarbe today) and didn't strike me that much different enough to merrit sales or consider a sporty sedan. They each feel like grandma cars to me (at least in the SE) now my SLE takes the grandmaness and makes it all go away! Just the way I like it, my wife says it rides to rough! I reply its a Pontiac what do you excect! I am a Bonneville and Pontiac Man and I like it that way! Keep the Bonneville put a V8 and a standard 3800 in it (with more power) a better interior and sharp exterior and good driving dynamics you can't lose! KEEP the Bonneville, weather its FWD or RWD it will be welcomed by me at least... People always can recall a winner, a good car and a label and a legacy! The Bonneville had one GM is taking legacy and good names like Grand Am, Bonneville and maybe Grand Prix away for what? So people forget the connection with the past great cars they made in the time when a Bonneville had a 421 or a 455 and you were the talk of the neighborhood! Only Pontiac can build the Bonneville and the Bonneville is a car many people even 4 cylinder Camry drivers remember as a good car! Who would want to ruin that legend? Opps they did it with the GTO... (Look its back) I know Pontiac/GM can build a world class large sports sedan so just build it already! Thats my 2 cents! ;)

No advertising. Too expensive when compared to other similarly equipped vehicles. Reputation for inferiior quality. My sister (late 50's) has driven Bonnevilles since she started driving. Now for the first time ever bought a Toyota. Why? "Consumer's Reports".

Being another "Baby Boomer" - GM has little to offer to me without the Bonneville. I don't want the floaty suspension of the Buick, the mid-size of the Chevy, or the cost of the Cadi (not much of a fan of the styling either.) The "This isn't your father's Oldsmobile" was a good indication of where GM started to go wrong. Leaving their base market, and looking for the newer, younger, import driving purchaser they weren't likely to get. Like so many other companies....ignore current customers, and focus only on getting new ones.

I "slip, slided" around in the winter with rear wheel drive cars as I was growing up. No thanks. Be a world leader company and do the "impossible". Show how a front -wheel performance car can be made and compete with the rear-wheel drive folks. Show innovation, excitement, attitude.....

Get back to your roots, your base support...then work on getting new customers. Let people know the car exists, what it has, and what it can do. Make the cost reasonable when compared to other makes and models. Improve your "poor quality" reputation.

I love my 2000 ssei. I in no way regret purchasing it. I am sad to see it on it's way out.

My gripes are thus:

1. The northstar was a bad idea. Foreign cars are known to get a lot of power out of small engines. I think a redesigned 3800 with more hp(300) would have been a better idea. Thus it would be lighter, faster, and more torque.

2. I think the tranny could have been toughened up to deal with the(hypothetical) better engine. Also the limited slip diff would be in order as well.

3. I never saw any advertising of the newer bonnevilles.

4. The window regulators, and the intermediate shaft were trouble spots. GM could have saved some face by redesigning them to be of a stronger(or better) material and then doing a recall.

5. Price. Due to the stringent demands to pay benefits to your retirees and current workers, it has caused the prices to be inflated and thus kill your profit, advertising, and competetiveness with other companies, especially the Japaneese and European cars. This has made you to have to raise prices(not the only reasons, of course) thus making less expensive, and better featured competitors take up more of your market share by attracting what was once your faithful.

6. Bling factor. OK, this I don't care about. I remember my first experiences both with my old 92 ssei, and my 2k ssei. I felt like a fighter pilot going into my jet. I though the interiors looked great! However, since it seems I may be in the minority on this, it is important to find out what people want, and design as needed. Not to every whim or fancy, but on ongoing trends, you can pick up what people like to see in their interiors.


That all said. If I was in the market for buying a new car right now, I'd be torn because of the complex issue of the new Bonne. I love the exterior, but don't want an underpowered V-8. I threw in a smaller pulley and a K&N air filter and have almost the same hp, and more torque than your northstar powered GXP. I probably get better gas milage as well.

If you would deal with these issues, I think this phoniex could rise again, and take it's rightful place as the flagship of Pontiac.....

When I was in the market for my first car last summer, my target vehicle was a small two-door with a 4-cylinder and a manual transmission. I went to a car lot looking for one of these vehicles when I came across the car I now drive, a '93 Bonne SE. Why did it catch my eye? Why was I sold a mile down the road? It had personality. It was subtle in its styling, but stood out nonetheless. This was with a BASE SE with a column shift and cloth bench seats. If a base model can do this, the top of the line SSEi multiplies it.

GM needs to look back to what made nearly 100,000 people a year buy this car, and regain that market. The 2000+ Bonnevilles have no personality, minus the high dollar SSEi's and GXP's. They blend in with the Crown Vics (yes, Crown Vics) at the supermarket. Granted the GXP's have exteriors worth noting, but for $35,000 to $40,000 you can get so much more than a "good looking" car.
In a recent Motor Trend, an article stated that the Zeta based cars of Australia were "not refined enough" . If an enthusiast (that is the target for Pontiac this time, isn't it) buys a car for its refinement, then they need a new hobby. These are great looking cars that has what performance enthusiasts want. Rear wheel drive, and an optional MANUAL transmision. Assuming that GM decides to revive the Bonneville name, or replace it with the "G8", it needs to be based, although theoretically not one of these cars shipped over and rebadged, on one of these cars. Why? Personality. Thats why the 330C is selling like hotcakes. It's different. Why can't Pontiac do the same with the HSV Grange or the Clubsport?

The interior should have been subtle and meaningfull, instead of a throw together. Take the instrument panel on the GXP. It looks like some one took Vanilla pudding and threw it at the dash. And fake carbon fiber? C'mon.
Remember though, for every high end car that is sold, 5 lower, or base, models are sold. The SE's needed to give the impression of driving passion as well. My 93 does that very well. Not every enthusiast has loads of cash. This did not seem to be anywhere.

This is one enthusiast that hopes you get it right the next time.

I will say up front that my 95 SSEi definitely turned me on to the fact that GM is capable of producing excellent high performance cars when it tries to. In fact, I was so enamored of the power and controllability of the 3800 supercharged motor that when my Bonneville died, and I couldn't find another with a decent price tag on it, I bought a used Park Avenue Ultra that I found for an absolute steal. It doesn't quite equal my Bonnie for the 'Oh s*%#, I'm gonna die!' look on my friends' faces, but I content myself with thoughts of modifications.

I believe that my main issue with the last generation Bonneville is that there was little effort made to better it's predecessor. The 92-99 Bonneville had good power, excellent handling(as witnessed by my friends' white knuckles during late-night runs down back-country roads), agressive looks, and an extremely well designed interior(admittedly dampered somewhat by GM's habit of using hard plastic in odd places).

While I've never owned a 2000+ Bonneville, I have driven quite a few, and they lack much of character that set the 92-99 apart from the crowd. The power was still excellent but was quickly overshadowed by other cars in it's class. The switch from the the SCed Series II to the Northstar was unfortunately rather pointless. In my opinion GM should have updated the Bonneville to the SeriesIII. The marginal difference in horsepower between the Northstar and the SeriesIII supercharged motor is offset by the Northstar's worse fuel mileage.
The interior also suffers in comparison with the last generation. The seats in the 92-99 set a standard that the 2000+, although still more comfortable than most other cars, failed to live up to, and the odd-looking air vents belong in a smaller car aimed at the youth market, not a full-size sport sedan like the Bonneville. The most glaring fault in the interior, though, is the wide-spread use of cheap, hard-feeling plastics, and the monotone color schemes.
The 2000+ feels like a plastic cave, with no stand-out featuers to interest the eyes or the touch.

Now my opinion on what could be done to save the name-plate, and it is worth saving. Killing off Oldsmobile, the worlds oldest marque, was a horrible mistake, and killing off the Bonneville, the oldest American-made nameplate, would be almost as bad.

First, RWD. The Bonnie is supposed to be a sports sedan, give it the proper lay-out to compete with the newer offerings from Chrysler.

Second, don't make the mistake of killing off the 3800 too soon. It has been GM's mainstay for twenty years for a reason. The SeriesIII supercharged motor is strong and could easily be upgraded again to produce enough horsepower to contend with Chrysler's new HEMI motors, as witnessed by it's turbocharged ancestor in the Grand National.

For the top-of-the-line motor however, a V-8 is needed to compete with the SRT Chryslers. Possibly a retuned, hi-po version of the 5.3 from the new Grand Prix GXP, or a slightly de-tuned version of the STS V's supercharged Northstar or even the LS6 from the GTO.

Don't saddle it with the same old four-speed auto, either. GM has long been held back by it's refusal to offer five- or six speed automatics or even manuals in it's larger FWD cars. A six-speed stick in the perormance models and a five-speed manumatic across the board would increase interest greatly.

And don't cheap out on the interior. In a market where Ford and Chrysler are bringing out vehicles like the Charger and the new Mustang, Pontiac has to break away completely from it's image as the Tupperware car company.

GM needs to finally embrace it's Pontiac enthusiast market. Work with the aftermarket to produce tuned versions of the Bonnie and other Pontiac vehicles, and back them with GM warranties. Start an aftermarket division for GM cars, such as many of the Japanese manufacturers have done(i.e. Toyota Racing Division, MazdaSpeed, etc.).

Lastly, don't turn away from Pontiac's heritage. Slapping a UPC number across the back of the Bonnie's replacement, like you did with the G6, won't make the car sell better. Improve the product, but leave the name alone. Keep the Bonnie alive.

When my wife told me last year that the Bonneville was being discontiued and the '05's' where the last year for them, I thought that she was BS'ing me. Then I did a little research and found out that she wasn't! I was very disappointed in this decision. I have been a GM owner for years, same as my parent's and the same as my grandparents. Most of these Pontiacs, there where a few years that we didn't purchase Pontiacs but that was mainly in the eighties, but that was probably the worst decade for any automobile company except for the Japanese. My grandparents started with Pontiac in the late 30's, then my parent's started with Pontiac in the 50's, and my first was a 64 Lemans, then a 69 S Custom, I've had a 78 Trans Am and I've had 3 Bonneville, Almost 4 (an 87). I was antisipating a GXP because I am due for a new vehicle. But with the advent of this decision, I won't be going with Pontiac! I purchased my SSEi in April of 2001. I have had numorous issues with this vehicle, but it has been a pleasure to drive. I have always been suprised by the number of Bonnevilles on the road (not many) but I was equally suprised that I never saw any comercials for Pontiac either. Once after I had purchased my Bonneville, someone stopped and looked at my car and said that it was a very pretty Grand Am! I jumped back and said that it was not a Grand Am but a Bonneville. The person appologized and said they didn't know that Pontiact was still making Bonnevilles. This was a problem for me seeing that I paid 35k for a car that everybody that dosn't know of Bonnevilles think's I'm driving a 35k Grand Am. Just to give you a little more insight. I was an engineer for Toshiba Computer Systems Engineering division in some of the most profitible times for the company (92 -97) when they decided to reintroduce their desktop computer line. This was not a bad thing, but it could have been a whole lot better. After about 2 years of producing a desktop PC, I happen to be at one of the sister companies, Toshiba Electronic Components division, and I had just found out that they had purchased 200 new Dell PC's. I then asked the VP why they didn't buy Toshiba Desktop's his answer was he didn't know that Toshiba had desktop's! Needless to say Toshiba was at about 22 percent market share in 92, 93, 94, and 95. And now they have laid off more the 5,000 people in the Irvine California area and sold off 5 of their buildings and sent everything to Taiwan. Moral of the story, It's all about marketing! Get some people who know how to market a product! It seems to me our parents knew more about marketing than the people now coming out of our colleges and universities! Just a couple more pennies!

Another legend bites the dust. :x
I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore :!: :evil:

My first car 30 years ago was a Pontiac Tempest. They killed that one when the GTO died.....and has never really come back IMO. I killed mine by wrapping it around a tree. :oops:

My second car 25 years ago was a Pontiac Firebird. I still own it. They killed that one.
....and I can't buy parts from GM for it anymore. :evil: Even so, I bought another one this year....cause it's so much fun and easy to work on.

Then my third vehicle was a Jeep Cherokee which I purcased 17 years ago. I still own it. I like the new Grand Cherokee's....you can get them in SRT-8 form. :twisted:

My newest car, SilverBullet, I bought new 5 years ago. They killed that one too. :roll:

I have to agree with most everything other members have posted on this thread.
GM is over run with Accountants who care more about the bottom line and Lawyers protecting Warranty claims, instead of Engineering Car Enthusiasts. Herb Adams is a good example of one ex GM Engineer who helped develop 2nd Generation Firebird aftermarket performance parts.

They really do need better marketing. Not just the kind that produces quicky commercials that are expensive to air...so no one sees them....but real hype like Ford and Chrysler have done with Mustangs and Hemi's.

If only GM could make a less expensive Cadillac STS-V with the same powertrain but without all the bells and whistles, they would have a winner.
Instead, the philosophy with GM is you get what you pay for and if you don't pay the premium for an upscale car, you don't get the better drivetrain. Wouldn't want a less expensive car owning a more expensive one.
Everyone was so surprised by the Grand National when it came out with Corvette beating power! It was a hit and GM still didn't see the light and killed it.

GM with derate a whole car to save money on bulk buy lower rated tires and reserve the Special Edition ringers which get higher rated tires and higher rated drivetrains.

Look at the new Matrix. You can't buy the hot engine with a 4 wheel drive version.

GM does not want me to keep my vehicles as long as I do. It does not make them enough money. They want me to keep moving up to more expensive ones.
Frankly I can't afford a $130,000. Cadillac STS-V....even if I could get my hands on the one or two that will ever even make it to this Province.
I can afford a 425 hp SRT-8 though...in at least 4 different models...and know it would be easy to get a quick 450 hp out of it. :twisted:
Our local Chrysler dealer is building a brand new dealership here now. Just in time for my next purchase a year or two from now.

I really hope GM wakes up.....fast. :roll:

GM, you really dropped the ball by allowing the Bonneville to die a slow and agonizng death. To pull the plug on it just before it's 50th anniversary shows you have lost touch with the demographic of who is purchasing these vehicles. If you would put a little more effort into R&D and proper marketing, the Bonneville could have thrived for another 50 years. Just for a little background, I am a Mopar man. I have been since I was old enough to form opinions but... I LOVE my Bonneville. I began my love affair with this car when I first drove one from a rental car agency. Since then I have owned a '92 SE and traded that in on a '98 SSE. I will do all I can to make this car last me another 8 years because your inability to simply keep pace with your copetitors will see me visiting a Mopar dealership when it comes time for another vehicle purchase.

I think it's sad that the Bonneville has to be axed just a couple of years from the big 50.
But then again, since GM allowed the flagship vehicle of it's "Performance Division"(that's proved to be a big joke the last five years) to stagnate and wither, it's probably best that it disappears for a while.
If Pontiac is to remain the "Performance Division" of GM it needs to just that, geared more for performance. What's with the mini-vans, and mini-SUV type vehicles? When I think performance I think, low to the ground and fast(ala Trans Am), a mini-van/wagon type thing(read Matrix)/SUV don't portray this well.
There's a lot more I'd like to say, but most of those thoughts have already been touched on.

I love my 2000 SSEi. I test drove the GXP, and the performance "feel" was gone. We need more than just the rumble of the Borla exhaust to "feel" like we're in a peformance/luxury sedan. Off the line torque is what sold the SSEi.

Perhaps the line was cut also for the purpose of making the SSEi (and Bonneville) vintage? I wouldn't think so.

Making one last model of the Bonneville with the LS1 and RWD with a 6 speed manual on it's 50th would do just that.

But, I'm dreaming and drooling now.

I very sad to bonnieville go but being performance that 00+ just isn't what most modern performence car was.

Sales dropped off on the Bonneville for one simple reason. It's a piece of crap. It's the main reason I will never own another American car as long as I live. My 01 Bonnie had the transmission replaced at 70k because it basically disentigrated in the case. I bought a rebuilt from Roadmaster transmissions, and it has been smooth sailing ever since. One in four 4T65E transmissions fail, and that's one reason nobody wants a GM passenger vehicle. My car has also been plagued with strange electrical problems and have the lights on the dash and guage cluster have burnt out. I have replaced the hub and bearing assemblies on the front wheels 3 times, replaced the A/C compressor, and now the antilock brakes are not working. Go ahead and claim it's due to lack of proper PM! You're wrong. I maintain my vehicles according to the manufacturer's recommendations and then some. If this were a Toyota, even if I didn't it would hold up.
By way of comparison, my '89 Accord has 296,000+ miles on it and is still going strong with the original transmission and engine, having never been overhauled and needing no major repairs whatsoever. My '91 4Runner has 253,000 miles, also on the original engine, transfer case, and transmission. All the electrical parts work fine, and it gets the same gas mileage it did when it was brand new.
When American cars start to compare in quality to Toyota and Honda's, sales will stop declining. And then, only if priced competatively. There's a reason that the Accord and the Camry slam the American car companies in sales. That's my $0.02USD.

Well I have some thoughts to GM about their inability to try at keeping the Bonneville alive. Before I bought my 1992 Bonneville I had a 1990 Geo Metro Lsi and I thought that was the worst car to drive then finally the day came it broke down and I had to look for a new car. I have always like the 92-99 body styling of these cars. Lucky me I found a 1992 Bonneville SSE in perfect shape with 50,000 miles. Well 15,000 miles later the car still has the get up and go and decent fuel economy at that. Now since you have come out with the GXP Bonneville I have yet to see one on the road, maybe because of the 40,000+ price tag. Now if you understood how everyone on Bonneville club loves their car I would reconsider about taking the Bonneville line out completely, if the price tag was lower for the SE model more people would buy them. Remember also as fuel prices rise think of fuel economy without sacrificing the power of the 3800 engine. Hopefully the designer of Pontiac understands that the new Bonneville's are not the best looking. Change the design to a more sleek and sporty version and price it low enough so younger generations can afford it, and they will say they want a Pontiac Bonneville.

I've had my 95 bonneville SE 3800 series 2 for 3 years now with around 125k now. Before that I had a 96 Olds 88 with the same motor that lasted 178k. I'm 37 divorced and have a 6 year old daughter. The bonneville is the perfect family performance car. I don't at all feel like an old man or like my father driving this car, I did driving the Olds though. The bonnie has more than enough balls, plently of low end tourque, is very comfortable, roomy,very stylish and aggresive, handles great for a large carand is a safe car for my daughter. The Bonneville name is a reason I bought the car. It envolkes memories of performance, style and you knew coming down the road you had a bad car.

Pontiac is supposed to the performance division of GM. But GM has been braindead since 1982 when they wouldn't let pontiac put the turbo 301 in the new trans am because all chevy had was the 150hp wheezer 305 motor, its all been downall from there. All GM cares about is cost cutting. They have no clue what they are doing. The 92-99 bonneville's sold great so what does GM do? What they always do, redisign the car for a different segement to attract more buyers ignoring the previous ones using old and exsisting technology. Then it doesn't sell, so they leave it alone for a few years or they just kill it all the while doing no advertising.
Look at the success of the new mustang compared to the GTO. I saw the GM brass showing off the new goat to old GTO guys on TV. The marketing guys were so proud as they claimed that BMW and other high end buyers would flock to the new goat for its better price than the M3 and such. It just shows how out of touch they are. Guys that buy BMW's and Audi's and such are not going to buy a GTO. The older GTO guys there said the car drove nice but the styling was terrible, none would buy one. They all said where are the hood scoops, dual exhausts? Its too plain looking. It doesn't look like a GTO. When you see it you don't think 60's musclecar. It looks like a grand prix with a different rear and lame wheels.The car is marketed to people who wouldn't step into a pontiac showroom to see a jet car if they had one. My point being GM who does your market research?
The bonnevile could be a big seller if it was rear drive with a version of the ls-6 under the hood with a 6 speed manual and a 5 speed auto, plain and simple. The mopar dealers can't keep anything witha hemi in stock and they damn nicer than GM's. I never thought I would ever say that! Not from the K-car company. The way GM is going, pontiac will end up like oldsmobile, the last Olds were great cars but GM didn;t have a clue how to market them, I know I used to sell them.
I cried to see the firebird's and camaro's go away because GM refused to invest any money in them, IE: new mustang selling like the 64 model, bring back the bonneville soon but only if its a worthy car of its proud heritage,
Oh and 96-99 bonnevilles actually hold there value better on dealer lots than 2000 and up used models do.. Look it up, you.ll see People want 96-99's more than they want a 2000..
Good goin GM..More loyal customers bite the dust....
I hate to say it but 30 grand for the 345HP hemi charger is better than the new 303HP grand prix..IF i were to buy a new car, it would be the charger, and I've never owned a chrsyler nor ever thought I ever would, but it is the better car performance and looks wise and price and its rear wheel drive like musclecars are supposed to be....

Stole the words from my mouth.

I've never been able to figure out how the 2000+ cars can be longer than the 92-99 cars and yet it seems that when you get in one that it feels like you are driving a subcompact! My child's carseat fits better in my old '95 bonneville or in my '93 Lumina which is a smaller car, right? And as several have mentioned the 92-99 vehicles have much more comfortable interior.

I would have NEVER NEVER paid sticker price for my vehicle. I cannot imagine why anyone would pay $28K for a Bonneville SE. There's just nothing all that special about it. To me it's an ordinary car. Nothing stands out about it. The 92-99 cars had character to them. The untrained eye might not be able to distinguish a 2000+ bonneville from a grand am based on how similar these vehicles look!

When I test drove a 2000+ my thoughts were "this feels smaller than my '95, the interior sure is cheap, the gauges are much harder to read than my '95, but with a program car price, I'll take it. Any why does this thing have a 3800 Series II?? And I have no idea why anyone would ever pay retail for this car."

as my sig at the bottom of my post says i own a 68 and a 92 bonneville i love both and as listed earlier this car is a legacy of pontiacs and now you are getting rid of it. pontiac is GM's performance division right so why not do the new bonnes like my 68 big block 400 with a bullet proof turbo400 tranny back then the body style didnt covewr more then 2-3 years just look and my 68 only other year close is 69 and thats it plus those car rust faster then the performance dies i still can get that car to roast the tires off. i like the new 2000and up body style but comfort went down hill from the 92-99 styles and the GXP was to luxurious then raw performance its great you tryed the overpowered family sedan aspect that pontiac is nitorious forbut it flopped because you went for overppowered comfort instead of overpowered performance many people that want bonnes get SSEi because those are just as sporty and you can custom them more then a GXP.

my final thought is that pontiac better step up to their name and show that they are the performance division and that means that dont focus strictly on grand am and grand prix, but also focus on your flagship and add some performance to the whole line up bigger optional motors, turbos supercharger etc. do some focus on the whole line up keep the same line up and increase perfomance, have seperate luxury and performance models do something better then getting rid of a legacy

Killing off a legend before it's 50th anniversary
 

I have just a few things to say..First off You killed off the Oldsmobile why would you kill off the Bonneville wasn't the Camaro and Firebird enough? At this rate if you guys keep it up within the next few years what will become of GM?You guys are getting rid of cars that America fell in love with,and replacing them with names that no one has heard of or cares to hear about.Do like Mopar and Ford did and dig into the archives and redesign..Bring back the Bel Airs and the Olds line..Make a 50th anniversary Bonneville..Make it a convertible like how it was introduced back in 1957.Hey if the Ford 500 can make a come back the Belair and other cars from the gm line up of yesteryear can do it too...

Does GM really read these posts :?:
If they did would they change their direction :?:

We are the voice of GM loyalty :!: They should listen.....or they are dumber than we think and deserve obsolesence. :?

I am affraid that is true. Just look at GM and then look at Ford, Chrystler, and Dodge and what they are doing.

The main problem was advertising, finding a celebrity to indentify the car with and a more powerful engine. The perfect example for adverstising is the Nissan Maxima. How many Maxima commercials have you seen? Hundreds! How many Bonneville commercials? Zip! I've tested the new Nissan Maxima (a front wheel drive) and it definitely is not superior to the new Bonneville. Why have they sold? Commercials. Have you seen the new Cadillac commercials with the voice of Gary Senese? Tha'ts one of the reasons for Cadillac's success. Not to mention, that the CTS came out in the movie Matrix 2.

I remember that in the early 90's Pontiac had a commercial with Silvester Stallone. Anyone remember? It was perfect. It had the Batman look and feel. Tha'ts what Pontiac should've done. They should've had it featured in a top movie (Batman Begins) and customized it. How about the young Bruce Wayne driving a bold black Bonnevile GXP with a supercharged V8, Nitrous and 20" inch chrome rims? It would definitely be "Luxury with an Attitude" and not to mention a heart-pumping, ass-kicking 500HP! Now I've only seen a Bonneville GXP on the TV Series Alias. Look what the movie XXX did for the new GTO.

Also, they needed to design a new more powerful engine with a catchy name or feature. What about that new V8 they put in the new Grand Prix GXP? The new Dodge Charger with the Hemi engine is the new Bonnevile. It looks awesome and they did a cool commercial too. Although, it's RWD and I'm not too cazy about a RWD for an all year daily car even with Traction Control.

Personally, whenever I get a chance I'll try to look for nice '99 SSEi. It'll be a classic like the '87 Buick Grand National.

Amen brother!