2002 Bonneville SSEI Severe Knock Retard
 

Hello All,
Recently i have been experiencing what i thought to be a loss of power out of my Bonneville SSEI, after using some fuel injector cleaner the problem was much better. But i was eager to see some real scan tool results. This is a test with AutoTAP and my laptop. I have currently 75000 miles on my car, running 92 octane fuel (BP Gasoline). No mods except for 180 Tstat and K+N air intake. If anyone can clue me into why the high knock retard that would be great!
Test 1 = on ramp on the freeway
http://fireball.dnsdojo.com/images/K...tard_Test1.bmp
Test 2 = Got off the freeway, turned around, on ramp again
http://fireball.dnsdojo.com/images/K...tard_Test2.bmp
Let me know if any of you have problems seeing these pictures

Do us a favor and list out what the colors stand for. The legends etc are tough to read even at full size.

Absolutely,
Purple = Engine RPM
Red = Ignition Timing Advance
Green = Vehicle Speed
Blue = Knock Retard

Ok, this is what I see. No KR in 1st gear, then you start climbing in 2nd and have a spike at the 2nd-3rd shift point. Were you at WOT during these tests? I would start looking at the tranny, my guess is it's making noise that the sensors hear as knock. A shift kit should help clean this up a LOT. I went from 7*+ to about 2* after installing a shift kit. Another thing to check is your mounts, make sure there not loose or worn.

If you look at your timing line, it dropped at both shift points, this is normal to protect the tranny. A shift kit and a tuned PCM will correct this by upping the pressure and shortening the shifts. Intense sells a good kit for about $150 I believe, takes about 2 hours to install and the only tool you need is a inch pound torque wrench.

I'm right there with Dan on what he's seeing. Knowing the way our drivetrains work etc, I wonder if you have the ability to log misfires by cylinder? If so, let's look for bad plugs or wires as well.

Check fuel pressure under load. I've found a few cars that begin to starve for fuel, but 1st and 2nd go by quick enough that it doesn't show until 3rd.

I thought that as well Bill, but it seemed to be starting a little early for a lean condition. Which is why I'm thinking tranny. Check fluid as well, tranny noise sounds like knock to the sensors.

I would also suggest pulling each plug and making note of how each looks and what cylinder it came from. You want a nice gray/white look to the plugs. Not a black/shinny look. A bad wire or plug will have just that one bad plug. A bad coil will have a pair matching that coil.

Here's my scan.
http://www.thurs.net/dan/personal/bo.../misc/run2.jpg
Green= KR
Yellow=RPM
Red=boost
White=coolant temp

You have a good point there Dan. RPM might be low, I'm kinda used to how quick my modded motor revs and was thinking along the lines of how another buddy with a GP didn't see fueling issues until hitting 3rd.

It would good to check, but wouldn't go out of my way to test if other items are spotted first.

I'm looking REAL close at the scan here, shift 1 is about 42MPH and shift 2 is at about 75MPH. So no PCM tune has been done. So he's running stock tranny pressure.

Looks like he pulled 13* on the first shift point, and about 10* on the 2nd. He starting getting KR half way threw 2nd. Could be fuel starving. Fuel filter change might be in order. Another thing to check is plug gap. What plugs you running, and what gap are they at. I suggest gapping at .055 instead of the stock .065

So after very close inspection I believe it's a combination of 2 things, tranny and fuel. Mostly tranny.

Wow you guys are amazing at how much you can tell from the graphs. I just replaced the fuel filter last night and it was so dirty that when looking inside of it, you could barely see the filter element. It was full of a brown sludge (Probably from the bottom of the gas stations fuel tank). I also used my K + N recharger kit to clean the air filter last night. So tonight i am going to go out and run the same tests to see what if anything has changed. To answer BillBoost37's question i do have the ability to log misfires on each individual cylinder. I will also do that tonight and see what i come up with. Thanks again for all of your help and i will be getting back to you later tonight......

Oh and i forgot to answer Danthurs, i am running irridium spark plugs. Honestly its been about two years and 40000 miles since i replaced them so i do not remember the brand name. Looking around on this site i noticed alot of you use autolite platinum spark plugs. I think i will do a plug and wires job soon with Autolite.

If your supercharged don't use the platinum plugs. Use copper, autolite 104 should be fine.

Well i ran the tests a few nights ago and found that the knock retard no longer was following the shift points as much as in the first graphs. Infact the knock retard came on sooner! So i graphed the Throttle position sensor and for the most part the knock always happens at about 75%+ throttle. Interesting enough i started getting an engine code "random/multiple misfire cylinder #1". So I decided to do a little under the hood inspection as was suggested by BillBoost37 earlier. I first started out by pulling spark plug #1 (Because of the DTC). While trying to pull off the wire off of the top of the spark plug, the wire came loose from the connector that connects to the top of the spark plug! below is an image of the rusted out wire (Connector is not visible, it is on the spark plug shown below)
http://fireball.dnsdojo.com/images/Bad Connector 2.JPG
http://fireball.dnsdojo.com/images/Bad Connector 1.JPG
OK so thats probably a big part of the problem.....
Here is the spark plug itself
http://fireball.dnsdojo.com/images/Bad Plug 1.JPG
http://fireball.dnsdojo.com/images/Bad Plug 2.JPG
Currently the gap is at 0.0615"
These are NGK irridium plugs and "Supermag A07" wires with approximately 40000 miles on them. Needless to say a plugs and wires job is in order for tomorrow night.

I'm sure that's not helping any. New wires are a good idea. Autolites are about $1.69 each, so that cheap. Gap them at .055 and go one range colder then stock. That would be the 605.

Well I installed the new spark plugs and wires. I went with Autolite 104's. I ran the tests again. I noticed a big difference in response and knock retard. Please note that this graph was taken with 89 octane fuel, I was in Iowa this last weekend and it is really hard to find 91+ fuel down there. Can you let me know if this looks more like it should or if the knock still seems high, Thanks!
http://fireball.dnsdojo.com/Images/K...tard_Test4.bmp
Black = Vehicle Speed
Blue = Knock Retard
Green = Ignition Timing Advance
Orange = Engine Speed

OK, it is better, and better gas will help a bit. But I see your timing at about 10 or 11 deg. Unless I'm wrong you should be 14* at the lowest. Did you say you had 3* taken off the PCM? I can't remember. If you go back to stock timing that will remove 3 or 4* from the KR and that takes care of most of what's left leaving perhaps 3*, better gas should drop another deg. and that will get you were you want to be. Also, what did you gap the plugs at?

My PCM is 100% stock, i havent changed anything with that. The plugs right out of the box were at ~.054 so i didnt bother with changing the gap on them.

Hmmm, your timing seems really low. Mine floats around 15* and only getting to 14* breifly.

Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that i have only put 1 driving cycle on the new plugs? Maybe the computer is still "Learning" the new plugs?

because the car has learned the KR it tries to back off the timing to prevent the KR, that is why the timing is low

I figure i will run the car for a week or so and get 10+ trips on it and some 92 octane fuel in it to see where i am at then test it again

That's a good idea. Once your timing resets to the correct place, your KR should drop.

Alright, i know its been some time since i have posted anything on this thread but i have been able to get back around to this issue again. I have ordered a modded PCM from intense that should arrive here tomorrow, i also have put many driving cycles on the new plugs and have run nothing but 92+ octane fuel (Again BP gasoline). I have noticed a gradual difference but it is still not to where i want it. So, that s the reason for the PCM. Since earlier in this thread you guys were talking about tranny knock, i was wondering about installing the tranny false knock kit from intense on my car
INTENSE-Racing.com: Dynamat False Knock Elimination Kit
Has any body installed this on there cars yet? Can this be done without removing anything off of the tranny?

You will have a tough tme installing it on the trans in the car. Not impossible..but tough area to clean with it in the car. I doubt you would get much knock from the trans unless your trans has serious issues.

Hey Bill, you think he might only need a case learn? I thought if it looses the learn it can effect KR. could be wrong. Also, installing a new PCM will require a CASE learn. do you have a member near you that can help with that?

Not that i am aware of, but i started another thread last night about any software available to do the CASE learn with my Auto Tap tool and laptop, come to find out that AutoInginuity can do it (Or so i am told). I am going to go try a CASE learn on my stock PCM in less then an hour from now to see if the software can do it.

I'm the one that told you that. Let us know how it goes. It may help with a lot of KR

OK well i did another test this morning on my way to work (It makes going to work a whole lot more fun LOL). This graph is pretty much a straight line acceleration. Please note a few items first.
1) While doing this test, I can smell gas very shortly after stepping onto the gas pedal
2) This is with the stock PCM, my new intense one arrived today and is now installed, but not for this test
3) During the phase of high misfire, a loud knock can be heard (Approx 15-20 knock sounds per second)
4) The reason cylinder #1 is graphed is because a DTC will be set stating a misfire on cyl 1 after a second or two of the misfire knocking sound.
http://fireball.dnsdojo.com/images/M...agnostic_1.jpg
Upper Graph (Bad PIDs)

Green = Misfire Cylinder #1
Red = Knock Retard

Lower Graph (Standard PIDs)

Red = Vehicle Speed
Green = Engine Speed
Purple = Throttle Position Angle
Blue = Ignition Timing Advance

So i am basically thinking it might be one of these things.
1) O-Rings on the Cyl 1 fuel injector
2) The Cyl 1 fuel injector itself
3) Bad Coil Pack???
4) Vacuum Leak

Any ideas? I do have the ability to monitor any number of hundreds of PIDs with my AutoTAP scantool. So any information that you think i should get, i can graph for you to see. Thanks again guys four your help!

OK, well if it doesn't seem like its one thing after another before, it sure is now. Now when you are in park and slowly rev it up, it will not go past 4100 RPM! Below that in Drive it has plenty of power. Also when you start it up after it has been sitting for some time it will have a very loud knocking sound which appears to be coming from around the catalytic converter. This will go away after about 30-45 seconds. I replaced the O2 sensors (Both), they were do for a change anyway, and since i did the intake gaskets back in January, i figured having burnt coolant go through the exhaust would make them fail prematurely. Could this be the crank position sensor? Im at a loss here as it just seems like this problem will never end. Oh, also i swapped the cylinder 1 and cylinder 3 injectors and the misfire is still the same. I am still getting a code for cylinder 1 misfire and now a code for random multiple misfires. Any help would be awesome, Thanks in advance to whoever can lead me in the right direction!

Well i think after many hours of trying to figure out this problem and many generous replys from everyone on these forums i believe i finally have the problem fixed! I was leaving work on tuesday and noticed a very strong gas smell, i made it about a mile down the road and finally was able to pull over. Come to find out cylinder #3 was leaking gas like crazy! So i shut the engine off and removed the front three injectors from the car (Good thing i had my tools with me). I was able to walk back to work and get a new O-Ring for the nose of the injectors and fully test them to verify they were not going bad. I re-installed them but noticed that the fuel rail connection still had an extremely small gas leak drip coming from it. I was able to drive the car home so i could rest (14 hours at work and then this problem was starting to take its toll on me). Next morning same horrible gas smell except from cyl 5! So i then got a seal kit for the fuel rail itself where it connects into the top of the injector. After a minute of the engine choking a bit from the fuel in the cylinder heads it idled right down and now runs like brand new! No gas smell under heavy acceleration! I have yet to test the KR on my scan tool but it now pulls very hard and easy shifts thru all of the gears, Revs out to at least 5000 RPM (Havent tried WOT yet) where it wouldnt before. So i think this problem is fixed, so, make sure you inspect/replace your injector O-Rings when needed! Thanks again guys for all of your help!